What Lies Beneath Skinwalker Ranch? Archaeologist Chris Roberts Breaks His Silence

It was on this this really tall cliff.
There’s just this little shelf, sandstone shelf sticking out about about that far, right? And I could see something on it and I walked over to it and it was a piece of iron and it was actually like an axe head and it was wrapped in leather sitting there and I was like, “Well, that’s odd.” Iron and deerhide casts a spell.
>> Holy [ __ ] that can’t be a craft. There actually is a large unidentified object circling the earth. An incredible sea.
Actually, we are very curious to know where it is you come from.
>> I’ve been looking forward to this one and um I got to say your path is one of the more interesting ones I’ve heard of.
From archaeologist to archaeologist at Skinwalker Ranch. Uh how how do you get there?
Uh, well, I I mean, I guess it goes back to just what where I’m at and what I what I’ve been doing for my life. You know, I um I was born in California, Southern California, and then moved my parents, my father wisely moved me and my family up to Utah to Vernal, Utah. um in the late ‘7s, you know, and then I grew up there running around the hills, you know, trying to trying to just adventure and and and do whatever I could, exploring old cabins and whatnot.
And that’s kind of what what I did, you know, and then so I I went to school there and and was stomping around um you know, that area for my existence up until it was time to go to school. And then I went back to California, you know, did that there. And then eventually, you know, ended up back in Utah again.
You know, met met my wife that I have now and she’s from up here. We we met when I was just home for a while. And uh this was where we wanted to be. So I just continued doing what I did with archaeology and just ended up back here again doing that on the road doing different jobs. And then for archaeology, it went from really a a chance meeting, you could call it that, um of um of Tom and Candace on on the Skinwalker show at a at a a secondhand store um that’s in Fort Duchain where Skinwalker Ranch is. And it was a a really interesting chance meeting where I was um coming there to uh help my wife load up a piece of furniture that we bought from there. And Tom showed up because Candace was filling in for someone at the store that day. And um I had a a hat on that Tom knew the band.
It was Lucero. And he goes, “I know that band.” And so we just started talking because not a lot of people know the same music. And we started talking music. Um, and and then they started talking about getting together, having a dinner or something, and then they asked if we were superstitious or anything like that. And I was like, not really. I kind of enjoy that. Um, and then they said, “We’re there that they’re the caretakers at Skinwalker Ranch.” And I was like, and they said they they had a show. And um, in fact, the book, The Hunt for the Skinwalker, was right behind me on a book standst. And I didn’t realize it. I I had read that book in previous years, you know, this was this was 20 2021, I think, when we had that meeting.
And uh we just started talking and then uh you know, Candace being an anthropologist as well as as well as an archaeologist, I asked, you know, who’s who’s doing your archaeology there? You know, if you have a if you have a television show, they told me about the show. I hadn’t seen it. And that was kind of the beginning of the conversation of of coming there. Over the next few months, we had a few phone calls and text conversations of, “Hey, you know what? We should we should talk more about this.” And then, uh, that turned into an invitation to come out there for for dinner and drinks and and and talk about that. Um and then we did that came out there um and then uh talked about the archaeology that you know over over drinks and dinner um of what to do there and then we made a plan to start surveying the whole property so that it was kind of cleared for archaeology.
you know, the same night, um, an event happened that that, uh, I can’t really go into because we filmed about it. Um, and I don’t know if they will use it or how much I can talk about it, um, on film. Um, but it was kind of a mind-blowing night that that things changed the night we were there. Um, and, uh, and then we left and then again, yeah, months later, you know, started talking about archaeology there, started going there. Uh the first time I went there, I remember just, you know, going there with Tom and Candace and and another archaeological uh friend of mine, archaeologist that um wanted to come there too. Um and we started walking the place um you know and looking around joking about it being skinw walking cuz we’re just walking transexs looking for artifacts and um and started finding the usual things you find out there you know and documenting it for them and uh so that they would know what they were going to either disturb and not disturb, you know, what sites to protect and get an inventory for the property. It’s a it’s a rare thing to get um people that own private land to be open to that type of thing unless you’re actually doing a development where you need to do those kind of inventories. So, the opportunity to um to protect the history there. Uh I I wanted to jump on that um to help them in in that in that realm. something I do as a as a profession um where I do a lot of environmental things, environmental project or construction projects, development projects, energy projects and I help with protecting the resources uh whether it’s archaeology, biology, paleontology um but the opportunity does not is not provided a lot for private properties and I just thought this is this is a chance to to help them and again to help the history which is why I got into archaeology in the first place.
So, and educate people on archaeology.
So, that’s where that went from. And then, um did that for actually a couple years off off camera. Um surveying a good portion of the of the ranch itself.
You know, it’s it’s still not 100% complete. Um >> as far as the surveying go, it’s a lot a lot of ground, a lot of sites to look at and document. Um, and then, you know, and then it went from there to, uh, looking at the spoils, you know, that you saw on the show of >> of what was coming out of the mesa. And again, that was not, you know, not supposed to be what it was. That was that was for me to be on site to actually film about other things.
There’s a lot of really interesting archaeology there, just history in general at the ranch um that we have filmed about and haven’t filmed about um that hasn’t hasn’t even been shown on the show. Um just a great history. It’s uh I’ I’ve described it as a um as a candy land uh for archaeology. You’ve got a whole bunch out there. Um, and it’s very very interesting uh uh area as far as as a history goes in the prehistory.
>> Man, what I love about that is you came in, I won’t say cold, but you didn’t come in uh auditioning. You didn’t uh seek it out. you had this this chance meeting with the caretakers uh of the ranch on the show >> and one thing led to another and and you got to do your what you actually do and enjoy doing >> and that’s been what now five years that you’ve been actually out there.
>> Uh yeah, I would say four years. Four years I’ve been out there. Yeah. Yeah. I think I didn’t go uh start surveying it until 22 I think it was sometime.
>> Okay.
>> Early 22. conversations. We went there in 21 and and and started planning it, you know, and you got to do uh to even go on the ranch, you know, NDAs and everything, background stuff to get permission to go there. So, it took a little effort and a little coordination uh before we got there and then, you know, again, yeah, just started walking it. But yeah, again I um you know my job is to protect you know the history and and different environmental resources uh around this world and uh to be able to go there and do that and again never I never had intentions of being on the screen to do that that way you know I wanted I wanted to talk about things or someone to talk about the things that we were finding there. Um that was pretty much it. Uh well what I was you said something earlier when you had that chance meeting uh with Tom and Candace and behind you in the store was the book right the hunt for the skinwalker which I I’ve read that book years ago kind of reread it uh a few years back and that book always like for whatever reason really captivated me. Um, but when they talk about Terry Sherman and his family from 94 to96, >> uh, when the bulk of what they’re writing about, their experiences, where were you? Were you in Vernal at that time?
>> Uh, no. I was actually in uh at UCSB in Santa Barbara uh doing college, you know, for archaeology and working down in California at the time. um that book, you know, after it came out, again, I was I was in the basin at that time when that book came out. And um a lot of archaeologists I worked with, you know, we had a big crew running all over uh the basin doing archaeology at that time. And the book came out and everybody was reading it, passing it around. And so I, you know, read it, you know, went to uh kind of the north part of the of the property once, you know, and then just kind of forgot about it.
So, I really had kind of forgotten about that book and what was going on there when we had that meeting with Tom McCandis. Again, wasn’t even a thing I I had thought about um in in a quite a few years, you know, probably 10 years since I had thought about that.
>> Interesting. And let me ask you this.
So, growing up running around the hills in in the Uenta Basin, did you ever or hear about phenomena uh or sightings or things that were unusual? Because I know it’s a different world now, and I know even when Terry Sherman had this happen to him, there was maybe a newspaper article or two that people would reference. So, even in the area, they might not know what was going down at the ranch. But I’ve talked to some other people, a scientist in particular, that said the basin had these pockets of phenomena that it wasn’t just exclusive to the ranch. And I’m wondering, did you ever hear about or experience anything when you were growing up in that area?
>> Um, you know, growing up, people always had stories about Bigfoot around me, right?
There were there were Bigfoot stories, a few stories in the UA Mountains um that people would tell me and friends of mine that had sightings uh you know from a distance or or when they were camping or when they’re up at a you know up in the mountains at a party uh you know strange stories uh of friends of mine seeing things. I never saw anything weird. I didn’t know about the UFO part of it uh like the Junior Hicks UFO Utah Display book. I didn’t know anything about that.
Uh Junior Hicks was even my my wife’s science teacher, you know.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. I mean, so he was and I had no idea in in the mid in let’s say 201 or 12. He was my electrician at our house in Neiola. I met him. All right.
He was showing me how to fix wiring in my house. I had no idea that he had written this book that he had documented so much. And I’ve seen all his documentation even outside of his book.
It’s incredible documentation that he did for decades. And when I look at this all this data, there’s tons of people that my wife knows or that I know. But no, I didn’t I didn’t have any idea about it. I always thought about UFOs or the supernatural or Bigfoot is very interesting thing. But but I didn’t think of there being this level of evidence for it, you know, or or to think of looking for that truly um like they’re doing like we’re doing there.
Yeah. So, speaking of Bigfoot, we got a chance, you and I got to talk a little bit last night and I’ve had some did some film work and investigations in different areas of the c country around that subject. And with it, like I said last night, I went in going nothing’s going to happen. And then stuff would happen and >> you know but also what would be associated with it would be lights, balls of light, uh sensations of static and and it all seemed to be not just like a large primate lurking around in the woods. If if you believe or if you believe me or if you believe some of the people that have experienced that out at the ranch, I know there’s been a history documented in the past of like large or cryptids. In your time out there, has there been any reports of like, you know, I know we we see a lot with the rockets, we see the UAP phenomena, and is there almost like uh what’s blocking uh 30 ft up, where does this anomalous, you know, invisible structure that’s that’s pushing drones out and doing these things? What about the crypted thing since you’ve been up there? Any any reports since you’ve been up there?
Um, well, you know, Caleb and and Travis have a story that they that they told I think quite often about seeing something that looked like it was like cloaked and it was it was some kind of creature, you know. Um, other people I think uh you know Chris Bartell, who I know from being a guard there, um he’s talked about seeing things. Um, I don’t know about a a seen a Bigfoot, but people have seen figures um out there. Uh, recently, you know, with my work there, I haven’t seen anything like that out there. Um, you know, one day again I’m uh, you know, recording sites out there and and something did look uh uncannily like a footprint, but I don’t deal with that really so much, you know, and and there weren’t more footprints. There was one. So, but they’re like, watch for these things because there are the, you know, what they’re thinking is similar to a direwolf out there or other crypted. Not not necessarily is that a crypted, but that that’s out of time. uh you know where you have something that should be extinct there or the other things they see. Um but Bigfoot in general there again there’s you know there’s the evidence from the book you know the hunt from the skinwalker things being in that area people seeing strange shadow figures uh you know but um as far as documenting the evidence that they document on Bigfoot shows um you know where they’re out in the trees and doing that I don’t know that there’s been a lot recently of of finding that but again the what those guys say they saw, right? And I’ve sat with them on off camera and I I believe everything they say. There is some things there that you, you know, would maybe consider would be something like that, maybe in a cloaked uh fashion.
>> Yeah, I’ve heard a number of those from even from Bigalow’s uh guys. Something big crawling through a portal like a dark figure.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that story. Yeah, that’s that’s wild. And you know, you said something about finding the one footprint that to you it’s like this looks like a singular footprint with no no tracks but just one footprint. Is that accurate?
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.
>> So, I’ve got two things. Guy in Canada, uh, who’s been documenting this interactions, what he says with Sasquatch for years. He’ll be in the snow. They’ll turn around and there’s one giant track where it wasn’t there a minute ago in the snow. just one. And I was out here in Maka. I got a call where we have the skunk ape, right? That’s the lore here. And the curator for this nature museum called me and said, “Hey, look, I’ve got I want you to take a look at something.” And and so I go out there and on the edge of the Maka River, it’s just thick mud, like thick mud. And you if you’re walking, you’re you need to have boots and you’re going to get stuck in the mud. But right on the bank was too large. It looked like very large human barefoot tracks in the winter and they were just in the mud. It looked like somebody would have just dropped them down and had them push their feet in and then lift them right back up.
There was no track way leading in or out. And so she had this seinal medicine man that we were talking to. And he had a name for it. I can’t remember, but he said those they’re the people that disappear. And when I was in the Midwest at the reservation there, the same thing. They all had a different name for it, but they all described the same quality of being able to be here and then not here. Uh, leave a track then, you know, no track way in or out. But I found that, and it was kind of leading to my next questions. I found that to be interesting because of the indigenous people having stories similar to what you’ve experienced and and at the ranch.
And then the history of the indigenous waring tribes up there is that, >> you know, I know everyone’s maybe got their own opinion, but what are your thoughts about that being maybe an attraction or part of this equation or you being an archaeologist, do you think it’s more something to do with the land and and and that what’s going on with the land or do you think it’s a collective Um, I mean, regarding regarding Bigfoot, I I don’t know.
>> No, I I meant regarding just the phenomena in general because >> Oh, the phenomenon in general. Is it something with the land?
>> Yeah.
>> I I think that I It’s a hard thing to say, >> you know. I I deal with I deal with material evidence, right?
>> Yeah.
>> That’s what I find. So, I find the artifacts, what’s there, and and define things that way. But what we’re finding, what I’m finding there is there is evidence of a long occupation there of a lot of people being there in the past.
And it’s not prime real estate, right?
It’s not too far from a river, but it’s not like the greatest location. So, I feel like there is possibly you could say there is something else drawing people there. And I don’t know if it’s I wouldn’t say it’s the land and the resources, right? there’s something else there. Um, and with current things we’re we’re looking into now, things that we’ll actually hear on the show that I can’t speak of, I think that’s drawing things together to where it is something there’s something there that’s bringing people there. Um, whether it is in in prehistory or in historic times, there’s there’s a lot of activity at that location. um as well as other locations that are you know that that you find over time there’s a lot of people coming to the same location and it’s not just because it’s a watering hole you know or a migration path you know a great hunting blind uh to hunt there’s something else at some of these locations it’s that’s different that is drawing people there. So when you say drawing people there, you’re saying from an archaeology standpoint in your examination and investigation, you’re finding that over hundreds of years, uh, or do you even can you even put a year figure on it that people have been drawn to these same spots even though there shouldn’t be a real reason that they’re drawn to those spots?
>> Um, I wouldn’t say hundreds, I would say thousands.
>> Oh, >> yeah. Yeah. It’s a hard thing to to wrap your head around as modern humans just how much time that is. But, you know, when you go to these locations, there’s evidence of thousands of years, not necessarily continuous occupation, you know, but thousands of years of it it being a site um for different cultures for at different time periods. Um, which lets you know when you have a uh a site that has continuous almost continuous occupation, if you can do it that way, it really says something for that site. It’s not just a hunting camp. Um, it’s a place that people went to for for who knows what reason, right? you really got to dig in to see what artifacts do we have that we can define that site of exactly what we think they were doing there. Um and and places like Skinwalker Ranch are are have a bigger reason to be there than just just a hunting camp >> or so the evidence would suggest that there’s an attraction.
>> Yeah. There. Yeah. Yeah.
>> That’s wild. Um, so let’s get into some of the evidence as an archaeologist. You were off camera doing what you just described, but on camera what we’ve seen is some pretty weird stuff coming out of that messa that that you pulled out of the spoils.
Um, the organic material uh that looks almost gelotinous, like there was some kind of plant life within the rocks that may have actually been burned. And then metal fragments that upon testing, if I’m let me know if I’m right about this, have same properties as maybe the space shuttle. Uh, and then what blew me away and I think blows most anybody away if I uh talk about the fact that I’m going to sit here and talk to you today is ask them about the ceramic, right? Ask him about the ceramic pieces that apparently could degenerate when exposed to certain energy and then regenerate once that energy is no longer uh it’s no longer being exposed to. What what what was your take on that or what is your take on that?
Um, so the green jelly.
>> Yeah, >> that that’s an interesting one because again when I when I came there and we started doing um I started, you know, set up the screens and started looking at what was coming out of the bore holes after they had been doing it a while.
They had previously in previous season found the green jelly and they said, “Watch out for green jelly.” And I’m like, “God, I don’t really do jelly.” Um, you know, we do we do hard artifacts. what’s left over is bone and stone, you know, um not green jelly. So, that was a really interesting thing to look for um to see if if that was there and what it might be. That’s really interesting. You know, is it is it reactive with the bentonites that was going in the mesa? Is it actually coming out? Is it something that is reconstituted uh marine, you know, residues uh in there without getting in the mesa, right? without actually opening it up and seeing exactly where it came from. You’re you’re speculating.
I mean, it did date to that time. That is what it is, but exactly where it came from. You need to find those things basically in situ in place where where right where they came from. And that’s where we can really tell that story. Um the uh the metal I I watched that um you know I was doing the survey at the time when they showed the metal and I was looking at it and I thought that’s that’s just a weird accretion thing you know probably natural um when I saw it on the television screen. uh when I when I saw it in real life under a microscope, it’s got a lot more properties to it and it is very very interesting. Um the different properties, the different sides you have to it. Um it is an anomalous metal that you can’t just identify. Um and that’s something you do as an archaeologist.
You um you study materials, right? And everybody’s written a book on every material we know as humans, whether it’s prehistoric or historic. And you have a box to set every artifact in and put a label on it and call it what it is and move on to the next one and do your counts and weights and then describe your site. Well, you have material there that does not fit in a box with that metal. A very simple, you know, it’s not a simple metal. It’s not a rusty can.
It’s very interesting um and has a lot of interesting properties to it that again we’ll go we’ll go into more uh regarding the the look looking at the metals uh this next season um on the show. Um that brings me to the the ceramic. Um, that was very interesting. And I I’ve said this a couple times, you know, on the the Skinwalker Insiders thing and um the cruise we went on where um when that showed uh so when I was doing the screening, you know, I set up uh lights, black lights, screens, you know, I’m trying to maybe find some interesting minerals uh coming out of there. Uh and they said, you know, watch for metal and watch for green jelly. And I’m like, “This is going to be boring cuz nothing’s going to come out of that messa that’s not natural. It’s too deep.
You’re boring a tiny little hole.
There’s a not a chance in hell you’re going to find anything.” And um and it was a little while into it, you know, we’re a few weeks into it and then um that material showed up and five pieces showed up at the same time.
And I said quite a few words, uh, choice words. Nobody was around. I had cameras on me, but nobody was around. I was kind of on, uh, just just being filmed. And I was sure I was like, “These guys are hazing me. They’re throwing something in there to see that I’m looking at the deposits. I was seriously like, I I don’t I don’t know if I can go over and tell these guys that I found this in there because this can’t be in there. It can’t be from inside the messa.” Um, but you know, I had to tell them what it what it was, what it looks like, uh, what it appears to be. Um, and everybody was blown away. I was blown away and then they were blown away. And it was it was quite a moment where it was this is something that you it was undeniable that it was not natural that that it came from inside the messa. um and you know and and and identify it as something that just shouldn’t shouldn’t be in there. So, we don’t know because again that the mace is very clean. Um it’s not a trash dump. It’s not where you would think you would find anything within there. It’s layers of bedrock and clays and silts. Um and and besides the the top kind of rolling off there, right, you’ve got the rockfall there.
It’s it’s very clean, you know. it really hasn’t hasn’t been massively disturbed or there is not a lot of evidence that is evident to you as you’re walking around on top, right?
There’s been a couple things found here or there, but if it was really occupied for a long time and had a lot of activity on it, you’d have a trash pile at the bottom of the hill, >> you know, with with all kinds of different things there. Um, and it just isn’t there. So, I was very surprised to find that. um in looking at it, you know, put it under the XRF, saw the materials that were there. Uh very interesting. And then when they did when they took it off and went to uh um Utah Valley University and um and put it under the scanning electron microscope.
Uh I wasn’t there for that. When they came back and told me the properties and showed me the video of it, I was very very surprised. Um, basically self-healing properties of materials is a very very recent technology uh that has come out but not in history. It didn’t it didn’t really exist in the history books. Nobody’s documented anything like that. And to have a material like that doing that is is shocking. Um, it’s still currently being studied with a lot more tests and I can’t talk too much about that because again uh with the show and everything and the NDA that I can’t talk about all the other studies we’re doing to define exactly what this material is we’re dealing with. But that was kind of the first um the first evidence that we’re dealing with something that’s a lot a lot different than what you would normally classify as a uh housewear ceramic or a Denny’s wear, you know, is what we say in the field where you we and we know all the ceramics. Everybody’s there.
There’s all kinds of books on them.
There’s samples of them. you know what the ceramics are that are out there and and what they’re made of and how you make them and where they come from and where the paste comes from and all these different aspects of ceramics everybody already knows. So to have something where you’re scratching your head is very very uh interesting and also um head scratching um and it made us all lose a lot of sleep.
So, I have that.
>> That’s uh it and you mentioned something last night and I appreciated you saying it and you said it I I uh we weren’t talking about the show being scripted, but you said it’d almost be easier if it was because it’s hard for you like the directive.
Describe the directive of of just the act of filming the show. like what’s it like to be there when when you’re doing there and you’re finding ceramic or you’re doing your job, but you’re on camera constantly. How is that doing archaeology and knowing that you know it’d be easier if you just gave me some lines to say and then let me do the archaeology? But describe that.
>> Yeah. So, I can I can tell you the the best part of going there and doing archaeology is when there’s I’m not finding anything. The cameras aren’t off. The stereo’s on, right? I got some Sabbath playing in the background and I’m just playing in the dirt like you do when you’re a little kid, right? And you’re just looking for stuff. Um, that part when you do find something like I did in that moment, then every camera is on you and you got to say something intelligent about what you just find. And you might not know exactly what you just found, right? But you’ve got to have something right there. And everyone is standing around you. And that’s not something that I’m used to doing. You know, it’s like uh you know, you’re no one is acting. There is there is no script for the show or man it would be a lot better. Um you know, they could make it very very interesting. Everything is real and there’s a lot of boring days where you don’t find anything. I mean, I I I screened >> that stuff for weeks. Um, and nothing came out of it, you know, and and and like anything that would be interesting.
There were maybe some magnetic rocks came out, right? That’s a natural thing.
It’s interesting at a geologic level, maybe a little bit. Um, but but you would just go through whatever you need to do. And that’s the same thing under the science tent and the guys walking everywhere. Everybody’s working and everybody’s looking for things. We capture everything, but what they see on the show is actually I mean you see 5% of what happens if that and it’s the most interesting things that do happen.
And again, if it was scripted, it would make sense. But none of this makes sense, right?
>> Yep.
>> I mean, you go when you’re looking at it, okay, we found this ceramic material, you found this metal, you found this green jelly, and then, you know, a little while later, a nickel pops out.
Right. And all that did was piss me off.
So that’s all I have to say about that because a nickel shouldn’t be in an undisturbed messa which lets you know there was a disturbance in there at some time.
>> Um and again the the the picture that everybody gets to see on the show. That was my picture that I took before I touched that nickel because I could see the patina on it knowing it didn’t come from someone’s pocket. Right. Because that was the first thing we did was we went and looked everywhere in the slurry pit and everything because there is a you have a pervenience of where it came from, right? Which in the mea it’s a 30ft pervenience every 30 ft which is every joint of pipe and then from where it came in and then it comes down in a pit. Then they suck it out into the hydrovac truck and then they transfer it over to me and we dump it out and I watch it go in the screen and then I clean everything and try to identify any any artifacts. And that was that process. So we had to go over to the pit. We had to check the truck.
Everybody checking their pockets. But I could tell it was in the mesa for at least 40 years if not longer because of the patina that was on it. Looked just like the stone that came out of there.
>> Okay. that that that nickel had not been in circulation for a long time.
>> And what was the date on that again?
>> 1964.
>> And I know watching the show it can you describe what a nickel might mean to an archaeologist excavating a site?
>> Yeah. So we’re and again this is something we just talked about, you know, like what is a nickel doing in there? And just an example, something you do in the field when you excavate, right? Um you when before you backfill your unit, right? You’re digging, let’s say you’re digging a rock shelter and you’ve dug 50 units out of there, 30% of the site, right? You got everything out of there, but you need to put the dirt back, right? And that’s for that’s for future study. Um everybody knows the site’s there. It’s been documented.
You’ve got records for it. And you throw a penny usually, right? You know, not you don’t have a lot of money, so you throw a penny in there. the most recent one you have hopefully from that year if you can into that and then you back fill it so that when it is dug up if all records are lost when they redig it they know someone dug here there’s records of this excavation that’s all that means right and that and that is so that is a theory but again until we get into Mesa and find the other million nickels in there in situ which we’re hoping for um we don’t know why it was in there, but that it was in there. That’s all we can really say. So that either someone, right, or a lot of someone’s were in the messa somewhere in the mesa uh after 1964, right? It could have been 1984. Could have been 1974, but but not before 64. That and that also is the most common nickel produced. They even produced it after 1964. they just kept mitting that one.
>> So, there’s more of that nickel than anything. So, it’s not rare. It’s not something special in that realm.
Besides, it marks 1964 as the earliest that that nickel could have been in there. So, it is a great time marker. Um, but it doesn’t give us what we need until we truly get inside the mesa and see how did that nickel get in here? And once we get in there, we’ll be able to answer that.
>> Interesting. Um, you know, for me, I’m a knucklehead. I’m always like, “Why won’t you just blow up the whole side of the mea?” And you’re like, “No, man. That’s that’s not going to happen.” But, um, from where you sit and the scans and the technology, do you think there’s something large buried in that messa?
um from the scans, things that every everyone has seen so far. Um I don’t know exactly what is in there. I I there’s evidence of something. There’s a disturbance in there. The scans come back and the and the the thing is is that um again we can see things in the sky, right? We can we can look at the um RF right on things. We can see gamma radiation, all these different sensors, right? I would say that could be anything, right? All these scans that that could be anything. It could be something natural that is being interpreted as something else. But when you pull material evidence out, when you targeted that location based on these scans, based on a legend of there maybe being a cave there, and then you actually stick a tiny little bore into the mesa and pull out not just one, but multiple pieces of this material and a nickel and other things I’m not allowed to talk about yet.
>> Okay. It’s kind of mindblowing that yes, there there is something in there. There was something going on in there. There has to have been what it is when it’s from I I can’t say till I till they let me get in there. Blowing it up, right?
Which is a really fast way of getting in there. It’s also a really fast way of losing all our evidence, which sucks, right? I would love to just say, “Let’s let’s blow it up and go in there.” But then what if what we’re looking for is right under the surface, right?
>> And we and we just destroyed it. Or or further than that, um which is something we’re we’re looking at really closely is is archaeology of deep time, right?
Where you might have some something that’s very very ancient that that’s where these signals are coming from, right? where you’re getting this, you’re getting signals, you’re getting different um different ways of detecting things that there might not be a lot of residue. When you when you excavate an ancient site that let’s say it’s 8,000 years old, you’re going to have some bone and you’re going to have some stone and you might have pottery, right?
If it survived, you’re not going to have anything that deteriorates. You’re not going to have the leather. You’re not going to have the flesh of anything.
you’re barely going to have maybe any seeds. There’s just things don’t survive time. And so if we go back beyond that window of let’s say Clovis or even pre-Clovis where we’re getting to 20,000 years or even further back in time, what does survive from that time, right? And it might be a signal is what you is what we’re going to find in there. So when you look at the artifacts that we pulled out, we pulled them out of being in situ in the mesa and they may have been from something that was causing these signals that we have.
Um, and if you don’t if we don’t get in there and open it up slowly and find them in place, we might destroy that signal. Right? So Eric has said this, right, multiple times. We have to go slowly. It’s like a biopsy of what we were doing, which was a biopsy. Nothing was supposed to come out of those, right? Basically, we have a positive for artifacts where we should have had negatives. They were trying to go around whatever anomaly was in there, right? They wanted to go around it. They had the signals here, but we actually hit the edge of whatever it is.
>> Right now, whether it’s all that big or whether it’s broken, right? It’s like a debris field. Maybe it was something that was this big, but it’s spread out now throughout that area. And that’s that’s the stuff the data that Yan found and and and that you can see with all these things they’ve showed on the show many times that that stuff you’re seeing down the mea is actually embedded in there, but maybe it was something smaller and somehow we hit part of it, but we don’t we we can’t just identify what it is. It doesn’t have a maker mark on it, which is what you always hope for in archaeology. you hope you get that that part of that plate right in the middle.
So, it might be a saucer, right? But it’s not one made, you know, in Denmark.
Um, uh, I like to joke about that. There might be a saucer in there, but it’s not a teacup and a saucer. Um, but who knows? Who knows what it is? Um, but and and whether it’s something big. Um, again, information from this next show.
We talk a lot about the analysis of the material that I can’t I can’t talk more about. Um uh and I apologize for that, but we’re we’re not allowed to. It’ll come out, I think, in a few months. Uh you know, which I hated that part of it.
I hated the part about finding what we found and it turned into 10 months of waiting to even say one word about it to anybody.
>> That’s got to be tough.
>> That was grueling. It was almost like a mental prison where I I could talk to who who I worked with right at the ranch. um you know and and the production team and and everybody that’s in within the NDA to a degree, but I couldn’t talk to anybody else about it and it was grueling. So, I mean to be you’re the first person I’ve talked about it like you know that’s recording this is it was amazing to find you know but um but it was it was mindnumbing and mindboggling and drove a lot of us crazy. I mean, even the guys that that had been there for years doing it, um, the executive producer, Jason Shook, who was from he’s from Ancient Aliens, right? He’s done Curse of Oak Island, he couldn’t sleep at night, right? And he’s kind of versed in this kind of thing, right? Dealing with this kind of stuff.
and and we were all just uh you know it blew us away that we actually found something that is definitive that there is something going on in there you know something in there that actually has material to it so that it it is an undeniable proof that something’s in there. So >> man I’m I would be terrible at that. I mean give me like I can keep my mouth shut for like a week and then >> Yeah. No, it’s it’s it’s it’s ridiculously hard. Yeah, it was just waiting and just waiting and then the show got pushed back.
>> The the fires happened in California.
The show got pushed back a couple months. Uh you know, sadly um you know, Shook lost his home in California. He’s the one that does all the work on on the final edits of the show. So, it got pushed back a couple more months. Um so, and it was grueling for everybody just waiting for that, you know, and luckily they put it right at the beginning.
Right. Right. Right. At the first I was like, “Oh, thank God I don’t have to wait like I think it was going to be 10 episodes, >> you know, until we actually found it in in the time sequence, but he put it at the beginning and I was like, “Thank you for doing that.” >> Felt like you could.
>> So, at that point, I could talk about it and people could know we found something.
>> Right. Right. Oh, man. Well, now it makes me I’m really anxious for the next season. I know you can’t talk about it.
I mean, I get it with the NDA, but I will ask you this. Is there anything on par with anything that you discovered?
Let me rephrase that.
Is there anything that you’re holding your breath on and kind of can’t wait for it to come out so you can talk about it?
>> Yeah. I mean, I, you know, before we talked, I wrote a list of things I can and can’t. I wrote the list and then I wrote no, yes, no, yes, no, yes. Right.
Talking about the ceramic. Yes. I can talk about is there stuff on par? Yes. I mean, yeah, it was like the the work doesn’t stop on the show, right? I took I had a hundred buckets of of of residue that came out of there, right, that I had already screened in the field, but you can’t see it that well. I had to take it back. Homestead one became a laboratory and everything was spread out and I resorted everything at least twice, right? Um, I water screened everything so I had it cleaner because every piece of this matters, right?
>> And we’ll talk about that again, you know. So, there were again things that are definitely on par even. I mean, it really paints a picture this next season as to what we may have going on in there. At least there’s more, right?
Until we truly open it up and get in there, which I am I am like chomping at the bit to get in there. Um it’s it’s painting more of a picture.
There were more things found um that we talk about in in the next season because again the investigation it goes year round. There’s always something going on there. The show does not capture year round.
>> That’s you know I was going to ask you that and I that I I know it’s like well okay we’re it’s cold now it’s winter time. Let’s just shut it all down. It doesn’t happen then, right?
>> No, I I was No, I was in Homestead One.
I was water screening in Homestead One.
Um, you know, it it was strange to me. I was in Tom and Candace where, you know, they had been staying. They’re not there on the ranch anymore. And I’m in where we met in their living room, turned it into an archaeological lab, you know, and I mean, they’re sorting things, water screening them, resorting things because the the opportunity we have, this isn’t just like a regular archaeological site. This is private land. Brandon can go, I’m done with the archaeology, right? He loves it. He absolutely loves every bit of history and prehistory and preserving it. But the opportunity that I have to check this stuff and how important it is to not miss one artifact. And that’s not the way you usually do it. You usually sort and you give it so much time because you have a budget and then you put it in a box over here and that residue might never be gone through again. But I realized the importance of it to everyone, right? That I had to sort it two or three times to make sure every single fragment was either natural or something that we need to look closer at. And there is a pile of things that we need to look closer at that that’s very interesting to me. I wish I could talk more about it because it’s it’s really cool. Um, >> no, that this just gives me uh now I’m now I’m stoked. my buddy got duped into >> on Facebook sometimes they’ll say, “Hey, it’s premiering >> tonight like these fan channels.” And so he’s like, “Hey, man. I just ordered History Vault. I’m going to watch the new season tonight.” >> And I I And I’m like, “I don’t think that’s accurate, dude.” And and he calls me back 10 minutes later. I got duped.
I’m like, “Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did.” But uh >> he I’m excited. I’m excited to to watch the new season. And um uh you know the other thing I was thinking about too a lot of people because of the discoveries you found last season and and were revealed it gets a lot of attention but you were also out on Beyond Skinwalker Ranch at Mount Wilson, right? Which is >> Oh yeah. I not not not Beyond even though that is the location for Beyond.
Yeah. Jeff uh Mc Bernie um and Mount Wilson Ranch. Yeah. Uh I I went out there to to uh tell him what archaeology he had out there. You know, that was kind of an association through um through Skinwalker Ranch uh that uh we ran into each other. Um and he said, “I’d love you to come out and identify what I have out there.” He has museum quality, which you can see online.
museum quality archaic mostly uh projectile points, spear points, ceremonial stuff, stuff that was never designed to uh be used, right, in warfare or anything and more than likely were like offerings like like shamanic offerings. Um he even found one cuz I was like, are these all fake? Because they’re so good, right? He found one in the dirt himself um in the meadow in an area that is definitely likely a ceremonial location. So his site there uh at Mount Wilson, you’ve got basically a habitation site where people would have lived up on top uh where his home is where the saloon is. If you if you’re familiar with it, Mount Wilson’s fantastic. And then you go down into the meadow and that’s where the artifacts kind of start to peter off, right? But they get more selective with being more ceremonial down in that area where you’ve got what he actually calls and they describe as the portal location of these two stones that come together. And he found a spear point probably this long of obsidian found in that location.
They look it’s very interesting that they they the designs of them match older, but they’re probably maybe archaic. We need to get them dated to see uh and do some obsidian hydration.
We haven’t done anything with them yet, but they’re gorgeous from that site.
It’s just really insane that he’s got that going on. The interesting thing is that Mount Wilson is is basically Skinwalker Ranch’s sister site, right?
>> It’s it was owned by Bigalow, right, at the exact same time. He bought it basically at the same time period. All the same scientists went there to study it. Jeff has got really interesting stories of what he’s heard there, what they’ve seen there. People doing um like ghost hunter people come there and study it and see really incredible things. So I went there a few times, you know, doing that with him uh showing him different things he had there. And then we actually he asked me to come there once um for um was it Sam and Colby the ghost hunter Sam and Colby they >> uh were we did a film there uh which I didn’t know until it was nearly over that it was a film.
>> I thought they just wanted me to tell them what what we had. Show them the artifacts, talk about the sites there, talk about shamanism in the area, you know, um, inform them, no, it’s not skinwalker country, you know, that’s Navajo, and that’s where that legend comes from. And, and it was very interesting, and their film, I don’t know, you know, there’s there’s like a link to it you can get, but it was at the theaters. Um, we did a premiere for it in Hollywood.
You know, I’m watching the movie and um it was very it was almost I mean they were kids, right? They’re messing around ghost stuff and it’s like you take the history and prehistory of people and and there’s reverence about it and I didn’t see that by the end of the film. It was overwhelming within them, the reverence that they gained over that time there.
And the message if if you know I I can send a link to people um because they’re not putting it out. They’re not putting on Netflix, but the message that came across when they put their headphones on, they did like the ghost thing, right? Somebody’s asking questions and only one of the other guys can hear the answer.
It was so simple um that it couldn’t be fake, right? It was so to the core of what we should do as humans on this earth that um it was like, “No, this this is not sensational. They’re not making this up.” So, it was very very interesting uh to go there and be there with them and and have that experience there of these young guys truly just kind of fooling around and doing this thing to where it was it it turned into a legitimate investigation that they did. They went up to what is called the shaman’s cave and did um you know a ghost speaking thing. They went in you know all the different rooms. Um and that was interesting. There’s something there.
Well, made Bigalow leave there, I think, is a real presence, you know.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. And and and what’s wonderful about Mount Wilson being the basically the sister site to Skinwalker Ranch is everybody can go there. Everyone’s welcome to come there. You can go to the saloon and have a shot with Jeff and he’ll tell you all the stories, right?
And it is an incredible place to go.
It’s beautiful. There is a incredible history there. Um you can walk all the different sites. you can stay in the room that Bigalow was told get out, you know. And um he’s only talked about it once that I know of on on a uh a podcast. Um he really doesn’t talk about a lot a lot because he really did kind of tuck tail and run from there, you know. It’s like he won’t he won’t come back to Skinwalker Ranch either.
>> Um >> that’s interesting.
>> Yeah. He he doesn’t want anything to do with those places anymore. Um, and I don’t I don’t know why he doesn’t. Um, I do think each place treats everybody differently depending on what your intentions are.
>> Um, that seems to be the vibe everybody gets of, uh, >> you know, if you’re there to maybe exploit something, um, you might not be treated the same as someone who’s going there to, you know, be there and and protect the place or something. It’s, it’s very interesting.
I found that in a lot of the conversations I had with the other team members at um uh on the cruise uh on the Skinwalker Uncharted cruise. Very interesting insights, you know, that you don’t get when you’re filming, right?
You’re busy filming. You don’t have time to just really talk to everybody. And it was a really interesting to see the different things and experiences that everybody had. Um very, very interesting.
>> Couple things. When Sam and Koba, you’d mentioned there was a really simple message that came through to them. What was that message that was audible?
>> Uh I don’t know the exact words, right?
But it was protect the earth.
>> Okay.
>> It was it was it was something came through something in a voice me just summarizing it. Protect the earth.
Right.
>> Wow. And I I know I know those guys as far as their content and stuff. So I get it. They came in kind of, >> you know, doing the the yuckster blazing. Yeah. And then >> Yeah. Guns blazing, looking for what, you know, sensationalism, which of course they need to do that for their audience and everything, but it I I believe it was humbling to them.
>> Yeah.
>> And and and and the film, I thought it was really well done because you saw that evolution literally going on. And I was only involved in a few scenes and I didn’t know how it was going to turn out. And and again, I came away at the end and people are like, “Was it was that real?” Because I don’t do the ghost >> right >> voice box thing. Um I don’t understand that part of it. And and I just logically I’m like, >> well that’s not going to sell tickets, right? Even though I mean it’s a wonderful thing and that is what we should do, right? But I’m looking at it as well if they were doing this and faking it right that would have been I think I believe that would have been a different message. They would have wanted to be scared or run away >> right >> and they were not they were not they were humbled you know.
>> Uh the other thing you had mentioned was on the on the cruise that you’re recently on and people just sharing stories that you wouldn’t hear on camera. Is there any, and you don’t have to name names, but was there anything any story that stood out to you that kind of was like, “Wow, that that’s a that’s somewhat mind-blowing, or was there multiple stories like that?” Um what it was was a culmination of everyone’s story that they were all shown different things and and this is very striking. They were all shown what they need to be shown.
>> What do you mean by that? Like >> I mean everyone is is is um everyone interacts differently with whatever is there, >> right?
>> Yep.
And um again, a lot of different stories that aren’t my stories to tell, but I think that everyone everyone involved at every level gets shown what there’s what they need to be shown to um to get something that I don’t know everyone’s getting the message of of what the message is. I don’t know that we know what exactly what it is, but that was something that came from all the different stories. Um, you know, I I was able to share uh cuz I can’t tell the story cuz it’s my wife’s story.
>> Um, but I shared it on the cruise and it is insane.
>> Where is she? Get her on.
It’s I’d love to I’d love to, but again, it’s it’s a very intimate, very very private story in insanely uh um what a a what an interaction, you know, the first time we went to Skin Skinwalker Ranch. Um so something I’m sure we’ll talk about at some point.
>> Yeah. No, that that’s all good.
>> We fil we filmed it, but they didn’t air it >> really, >> you know. Yeah, just like, you know, you’ve got, you know, the the story that Ben Ben Woodruff talks about, you know, or the the Hawk, you know, that he had that disappeared when he was out there.
They didn’t show that for 3 years. You know, finally he’s gotten like permission to talk about it and do a presentation that people can find online. He talks about it finally. I was I was sitting there with him in a truck and he was telling me his frustration of this incredible experience that he had that they didn’t show on the show and he couldn’t do anything about it. He couldn’t show it. And then um to see the relief on his face cuz I was on the insiders with him when when he got the permission to talk about it and it was like a wait. It would be the same thing as if u excuse me if we hadn’t shown what I found yet.
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Same thing. Same thing. That’s what happened to him. So there’s there and there’s a lot of a lot of stories.
There’s a lot of story lines um that deal with the history that deal with the archaeology. um that are in play to be told, but we’re at the will of, you know, the industry to tell those stories um that will really round off and colorize what’s going on there.
Everybody’s just getting a portion of it, you know, and and the unique stories of everyone individual that nobody knows. They don’t they don’t take time to tell to tell you about Thomas and his history and his life, right? or or Caleb or Travis or any of them. Um and and people that just come on the show and do other things that do the rockets, they do the drones, all the experiences that they have. There is some I mean it’s insane really. Again, everybody gets a small this much and there’s so much more to it. you know, I have a list of things that um that I have as an inventory of things that need to be um expressed on the show, right? And I’m just waiting for that opportunity.
So, well, is there anything that you can talk about for per just personally your experience cuz you don’t want to like you said that’s their stories to to tell or your wife’s story to tell. Do you have any that you can tell that it could be one story, it could be multiple um from the ranch?
>> Yeah.
>> Experiences on the ranch. Uh no, I mean I think I think I’ve kind of shared, you know, I I have what I find things there, right? I I’m I find artifacts and then we do share them and we’ve filled about filmed about a lot of them that I I can’t speak of. I have yet to see anything in the sky.
>> Okay.
>> Um, yeah. So, I can say that I’ve been shown material things, right? I’m looking, right? I mean, I’m looking down a lot cuz I’m looking at the artifacts, but I’m always gazing up for for that other thing um to see that um you know, the other sites that have been talked about, we’ve done um we’ve talked about doing scenes or have done scenes about the Masonic symbol that’s there, right?
It’s it’s much more rich than than has been previously discussed. The other uh they call it the petetroglyph that’s there. It’s fantastic. So, I can tell you at that level, right, you guys know these sites are there. There’s so much more to them and to things that have been found previously uh uh by people that worked at the ranch that have been that brought back and we’re bringing together and finding more um more artifacts to tell the story of what has gone on there in prehistory. Um, but it is so dynamic and really really interesting and I’m hoping because it needs to be out there to be be told.
It’s it’s an incredible place the history there.
>> Um, those are the things that that I’m shown. I’m not, you know, I’m not shown the shown the cryptids or the orbs in the sky yet, >> you know, but when you summed it up pretty well because I was talking with I think we had talked a little bit about this last night a few weeks back. I had spoke with Jim Seagala who he was uh he worked with Hal Putoff and Eric Davis in Texas on these funded studies and then got involved with Skinwalker and the first season once they he was working with Bigalow and then once that was sold I think Brandon said look you’re already doing science here how would you like to be the chief scientist on season one >> and he a lot of parallels with you and him cuz he was like you know I like to do the science part. It’s tough to do it with a bunch of producers around. And he said what you see is the inference of of and the things they capture when they capture, but a lot of it is just trying to do the science, right? But he did say the people are the what attracts the phenomenon in his mind. It’s the people and that and but e every person in these studies they do. He said it’s always they’re they’re being told something.
They’re being shown something or they’re being told something. And then from what you just said that you’re being shown what you need to be shown whereas somebody else is being shown maybe in the sky what they’re either selected to be shown. Maybe we’re going to show you this. we’re going to show him that.
>> And I find that to be uh pretty darn interesting, like the why of it, too.
The why of it. And also >> the fact that it sounds like you really just scratched the surface. Like this could go on for a long time or there could be some kind of big reveal. And that’s what keeps driving you guys every day, I’m sure, to do it.
>> Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, my focus my focus went from just inventorying the site of what what is there and telling them what is there, right? And telling some stories about the the prehistory there to I want to get in that messa.
That that is my goal. I have to get in there and I have to peel it back one layer at a time and see it in its place or we’re not we’re not knowing, right?
We don’t know what it is unless we do it that way. Everybody else has a different aspect. They have their different scanners, right? Or machines, ground penetrating radar, LAR, all these different ways of analyzing and getting the data that they know how to analyze, right? And that is like, yeah, Jim Seagull, I’d love to talk to him because that that’s very interesting. Um, never spoke with him before, so hook me up with that.
>> Oh, I definitely will. and and he uh he Jim makes um >> it’s called Mupas and there’s an AC it’s an acronym. So what he said is once he wrapped doing the work on the ranch is when he really started to explore the basin >> and he was having devices that would correlate activity.
uh it could be hundreds of miles away or in one case a device in Oregon from one in Utah that was probably you know close to a thousand miles away that when things they would almost correlate their activity like they were in sync even though they were the distance and um uh he just said there’s these pockets of areas all around the basin that have this similar activity and and sometimes they’ll it’ll happen up here and then it’ll go down past the mountain range in the valley and then happen down there and then go on down the line and it’s measurable. So, I found it interesting and he actually has a way to uh for people that want that equipment to to actually have it made and and shipped, I think, at no cost. So, I’ve I’ve got some investigating I’d like to do with that, but it definitely should put you two together. I think you would enjoy the conversation.
>> Yeah. again in looking at other places outside the ranch um when you have these paranormal locations, right? Well, you go there to look for the evidence, right? It’s like going to a crash retrieval site, right? You you go look what’s on the ground and see is there something here that’s unnatural or something that affected the natural environment and look for that. And that’s what I would, you know, I like to do, you know, that’s what I do with with other places. um to see is there is there evidence of you know evidence of uh you know what we would call this xenoarchchaeology where you go with the strange or whether it’s crypto you know archaeology or whether it’s just supernatural you know is there is there evidence of that on the ground that that we haven’t seen before um an example of not even realizing what I was doing when I was down this is on the reservation that’s here years ago um surveying and f found um an artifact you would just describe as a it wasn’t an archaeological site. It was just an artifact and it was on this this really tall cliff. There’s just this little shelf, sandstone shelf sticking out about about that far, right? and I could see something on it. I walked over to it and it was a piece of iron. Um, and it was actually like an axe head and it was wrapped in leather sitting there and I was like, “Well, that’s odd.” I documented it, you know, wrote it down, took pictures, did the the location for it and everything, but I didn’t define what it could be. And then years later, when I really don’t study it, but now I do. when you’re studying um Navajo witchcraft and the origins of the curse and skinw walkers and all the whole thing and the ethnography of it which is really very interesting.
Iron and deerhide casts a spell. It is something you use and that could have been an offering or something not necessarily dark magic but some type of native magic that I found out there. Right. Not realizing it touched it. But I never applied that.
>> Yeah.
>> Until this time that I’m going, wait a minute.
These archaeological sites you find when they are defined, you might say, you might loosely say ceremonial, right?
When you’ve got a big ka or something like that, but you have habitation sites, you have hunting sites, right?
You have kill sites, you have a liithic reduction site where you’re making things. You don’t go, “Well, this was the the cave of a Navajo witch, you know, and and they were doing spells in here, and they were casting evil, and you you don’t you really don’t do that.” Um, and so I’m looking back in time going, “Well, maybe I actually did find some sites like that.” Not very far from Skinwalker Ranch, you know, probably, you know, within 5 miles.
>> Oh, yeah. Right there then.
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just out out on the reservation, you know, just out in the middle of nowhere. Found that. And I I didn’t identify it as as being something that would be that type of a site, you know, it was very very interesting. So, I’ve I’ve delved into that, you know, into the the books and the ethnographies because they they go back in time. And there’s a there’s a fantastic book that I tell people to read. Um, and it’s uh, witches of Abacu >> and it is a translation done I believe in in Mexico. uh some some people went down translated old Spaniards Padres’s documents from the gazario in a BQ which were basically Native American slaves um taken there and prisoners right on all different tribes and they were taken there and held for for centuries right for the I think since the 1600s in the 1700s is when these journals started getting documented and there is the first from what I could what I know of the first transcription of a Padre watching a Native American turn into a wolf right in front of him.
>> Wow.
>> And if you read this book, there were all these trials going on. It’s basically the witch trials, like the Salem witch trials, but it’s the witch trials of natives, right? Where they were tried for this, imprisoned, um, separated, and they were taught the dark magic by an unnamed Navajo at this prison. An unnamed Navajo taught them, would take them out to a cave that that the Spaniards called the Devil’s Cave.
And it was at this location >> where you found >> where this was where No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Where this was going on in New Mexico. Sorry. This is in New Mexico. It’s a long ways away, but that’s Navajo country, right? That is the earliest description I could find of >> someone witnessing the transformation of someone into like a skinwalker, if that’s a real thing. But it it is a real transcript. It is it’s not made up. It’s not fiction. And there’s ethnography about this dark magic about shapeshifting. And it’s really very interesting. And again, I I went down that road to research where did this curse come from? Right. And that and that’s a story that we we haven’t gone into and we we we can where did this curse of the skinwalker come from?
>> Right. And you know the other point I was thinking about is when you talk about a sister location like Mount Wilson, right? Yeah.
>> What’s what’s the commonality there? The indigenous it seems like the indigenous culture is common in both areas, right?
>> Well, it it’s pautute there and this is actually I mean this is the Ute reservation but this was um you know this was like north of where Navajo was.
You might have shown in this area and you did have Ute kind of in this area but going back along. So it wasn’t it wasn’t related tribes at all in and over. So it’s not that but it is similar in that you have a great Native American presence at both locations for some reason. Right. Right.
>> So that would take you back to the earth the energy. Right. What was there? What what resources were there and what was there beyond resources. Right. where Skinwalker Ranch really maybe it would have been wetter and you maybe had springs coming out at certain locations, certain sites that are there. You do have a river, you know, two, you have a creek and a river near there. You have a confluence of the two coming together.
You got a great spring at Mount Wisser Ranch. So there are those resources, but it might be more of the energy of the sites where they they were and maybe they were both ceremonial in that respect where there’s that, but there’s something drawing people to both locations because you do have a lot of locations out there where you don’t find any artifacts at all. Right? So if you just look at it that way that no, it might not be. And again, the Paude being there and then up here, the tribes that you had up here at the time of us being here doesn’t mean that’s who was there 10,000 years ago or 5,000 years ago. You had different groups in there. And we don’t know enough about those to say if it was, you know, the same or related cuz you you go back so far and you’ve only got so much evidence you can deal with and really talk to.
>> Yeah. So, but but there is a Native American presence at both locations.
>> If anything, it gives credence to the the idea that whatever it is that you’re dealing with, the phenomena, the energy, uh, intelligent, um, non-human intelligence or ancient intelligence, that there’s been an attraction to cultures going back thousands of years at these sites. And could that be the attraction?
>> That’s very insightful.
Yep.
Listen, I’m not the smartest guy you’ll meet today. I I get like one one one good one per show. So, >> nailed it. Nailed it on that one. But that that that’s that’s the interesting thing. Uh you know that again with with the show. We’ll talk even talk more about um you know and I did I was I wasn’t sure if I could but that there is a history there’s a big history there that I was able to talk to about on the cruise. So, I’m free I figure I’m free to talk about it. You know, I won’t talk about specifics on certain things that are the indicators, but there’s a history of both places that go back a long time. And again, to have to have sites that have multiple periods of time where they were occupied for thousands of years is not common, right?
You have a hunting site that might be 3,000 years old. You have a Fremont site that might be 1500 years old, right? And and but they don’t go down in depth, right? If you dig into them, they weren’t occupied 5,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago. So when you see that continuous occupation, there’s something drawing them to those locations.
And uh so there is I mean and and then drawing modern people there, right? Why you go right on up to the Bigalow period, why was he there, right? what drew him there, >> right?
>> Pretty strange. And what what what did what did they see to keep him there and to make him study these locations and in very weird ways, you know, >> and at great expense?
>> Yeah.
>> You know, at great expense. These are smart men >> and and if we they wanted to just throw money away, they they’ve dec they know what an investment is and isn’t and they’ve made the decision to put a lot of money into studying this. No matter what anybody says, you could say, “Well, there was nothing there. It’s fake.” These are smart men, billionaires, putting millions and millions of dollars into something. To what end? There’s got to be something there.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, >> absolutely, there is. And And it I I a lot of it is just written. It’s it’s in the history and the prehistory of these places that you just you can see how important these were over time. Even in the his just the historical period in the last, you know, 125 years in the west, these areas and the people interested in them, right? And what their other interests are all culminate together and um looking for the same thing we’re looking for, right? the same answers we’re we’re all looking for.
>> Yeah.
>> And this is this is like the place where it all is. Very interesting.
>> Very interesting. Well, listen, before we wrap, I just a couple more things I want to ask you. And one of them was the guy that walked in and met the caretakers in 2021 to the guy I’m talking to today. How has this work and experience changed you?
Um, you know, it I have uh I’ve always been into other worldly or supernatural and all that kind of stuff. Played with all that kind of stuff when I was young and and wondered about it. Um, this has played into that there is a lot more that we don’t know yet, right? and and it’s it’s the desire to know how interesting it is when when I I look at what we’re what we’re doing there. Um and and these other locations, it’s better than a script.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And you really It’s It’s better than an Indiana Jones show, you know, and and all these different stories because this is real, right? There’s something coming out that’s real. Just like spite speaking about like the age of disclosure and these people that I talk to some of them very very closely.
I have intimate conversations with them.
This stuff is real. People are putting their life the reputation on the line for something that is going to change everything right and and we’re all just we’re all playing a role in this, right?
Every I I’ve found this through through this whole thing. Everybody’s interacting for some reason that we may not really know. We might think we know, but we may not know exactly what it is.
For some reason, for some answer that we all really do want that there’s something more to all of this, right? It isn’t just how everyone has it defined with with the way the world works with the way nature works with the way uh religion tries to define it you know all the different religions that there’s something else there and it’s that answer I think that we’re all going towards and um a question that I’ve always had just along probably with you and everyone else there’s some there’s something out there and um I didn’t know that I was going to be involved in trying to figure out what it is right at this level. And that’s really really interesting to me to where you know what if there is something more to all this right and um and and we’re you as well are part of getting the answer to that um you know and we’re working all together as a team and and figuring it out. And again, I I I’m still at times in disbelief of what has been found, what I have found, what I’ve had my hands on, you know, um because it it shouldn’t be there, you know. That’s just that’s just plain and simple. The stuff shouldn’t be there where I found it. So, it’s really really strange, really interesting, and uh and it is absolutely life-changing.
you know, I didn’t plan on, you know, even doing an interview like this. I just went there to go do the archaeology and tell them what they got, you know.
Yeah. Protect something, you know.
>> Yep. And here you are. Well, listen, last one. Um, new season’s coming out, I think, like you said, in a couple months. And any message you’d give to people that are going to tune in to this next season?
>> Um, well, yeah. I mean, what do they say? They they have a slogan that they say wait and see. But you know and you have to wait and see but watch it because uh it’s real. every everything that we find on there and all the activities and all the things they see is real and we’re all just trying to figure this out together, you know, as a team and um and you know, tune tune in to see it’s really interesting, you know, really interesting and we’re going to get more information, you know, towards our our goal and uh and some incredible incredible things that I’m able to that I fought for to get, you know, to get revealed. Um, so yeah, tune in for sure.
>> Awesome. Well, listen, man. I’m so glad we finally got to do this and I’m honored that uh I know you didn’t do any interviews and we’re basically the first one. So, I hope it’s not the last. I hope it’s not the last. I’d love to uh do some periodic check-ins and uh even connect you with some of the folks. I think you’d be really interested in in talking as well. And and um >> so until then, until next time, uh all the best, man. and keep rocking.
>> Thank you. Take care.