Skinwalker Ranch: The Device That Finally Proved UAP Encounters Are Real

What is going on at Skinwalker Ranch?
>> As soon as you pass the gates, you get this feeling that there like there’s something there. There’s something not normal. You’re entering a place that has this entity there. Something is there.
>> Batteries draining, drones dropping, equipment going dead. But when everybody leaves, nothing happens.
>> It’s when you introduce people into the property, it’s when you start seeing all the crazy things going on.
>> Some say it goes further than that. the people that feel that uh have been, you know, basically their consciousnesses abducted have much more profound experiences than people that say that they were physically abducted.
>> So he built a sensor network, put it in people’s homes, and what came back changed everything. These people claim to have experiences during those periods of anomalous signal. Upload pictures of, you know, their anatomy that has like rashes and lesions and bloody noses and all sorts of things that happened to them. Tonight, the physicist who studied Skinwalker Ranch and the science behind what’s really going on. Let’s find out.
Hey everybody, welcome to the Good Trouble Show. I’m Matt Ford. So, tonight we’re going somewhere most shows won’t go. And uh on our show here, we’ve talked a lot about UAP, about disclosure and what the government knows and isn’t telling us, plus all the stuff going on with UAP and Congress. But what about the people who are actually experiencing this stuff? The ones who see something, feel something, and then wake up with injuries they can’t explain. Our guest is a physicist and mechanical engineer who studied under Dr. how put off and was assigned to Skinwalker Ranch to investigate medical injuries linked to anomalous phenomena on the property.
Since then, he’s built a firstofits-kind global sensor network that is measuring what actually happens to people and their environment during these crazy anomalous experiences all in real time, all from inside their homes. Please welcome to the show Dr. Jim Sagala. Uh Dr. Dr. Sagala, how are you, sir?
>> I’m very good and I’m glad to be here on your show to talk to your audience.
>> I I am so excited to have you here. Do you prefer Dr. Seagala or Jim or or what should I call you?
>> I prefer Jim. Uh just keep it casual.
>> Okay, cool. Awesome. Very good. Well, uh super super happy to to meet you. So glad you’re here. Um so you were a mechanical engineer. You had a really great career. What made you tell your wife, you know what, I’m going to go back to school and become a physicist?
>> Well, when I first went to graduate school, I, you know, I got a masters in in mechanical engineering. I always looked at those guys that were like getting their PhDs is, wow, that’s and being scientists. I said, I was really jealous. But then, you know, life gets in the way. You get have kids and you have to, you know, get a real job and you can’t do all the fun things. So, but I always said I was going to go back.
And when my kids graduated high school or the day they graduated high school, I made the announcement on going back to school to get a PhD. And at that point, I said I was going to go get a PhD in phys or in uh engineering. But as I took courses and I was taking electives in physics and things like that, I just fell in love with it and just started I said I’m switching over. So I switched over to physics.
>> Wow. So was it everything you kind of expected it to be? Was it, you know, when you when you went into it, uh, did you immediately know that’s where your focus would be?
>> Yes and no. I mean, as an engineer, my whole family was built of all engineers.
I mean, so and engineers are very pragmatic. They’re very practical.
Everything’s a bolt in a nut. Um, physicists are very they they think in a whole different way. It’s like it esoteric and it’s like, oh, we’re going to imagine some forces and we’re going to imagine this. So thinking as an engineer and then transferring to thinking like a physicist was a big stretch for me and it took a little while. I mean when I was with students that were pure physicists, you know, right from the beginning, you can tell that they had a better grasp of the esoteric type of things that you learn in like quantum mechanics and things like that. But I eventually got got the hang of it.
>> And and what kind of engineer are you?
>> Mechanical. So it’s all like machinery and you know stress and all that kind of you know building things.
>> Yeah. I I was actually a double ET electrical engineering technology major.
I found that uh uh being an engineer requires you to actually understand and be you know pretty uh pretty good at math and which is not me. So I uh yeah I I ended up dropping out of that. But but I do have a love for engineering and and uh like I love machining. I’ve got a CNC in my garage and you know I love all love all things mechanical. I’m a total geek when it comes to that sort of sort of stuff. Now I understand understand you ended up studying with uh Dr. Hal put off and this is the guy who studied remote viewing uh and advised uh Bigalow on kind of the weird stuff going on there. And we’ll we’ll talk about that here in a bit. What uh what did he teach you in terms of studying what in many ways is the unstudyable as far as I know? But maybe maybe you’ll surprise me later with this Mupas thing.
>> So when you work with somebody like Hal, you so when you go to school, you learn how to do physics, you learn how to do science, but you don’t know how to really perform scientific things. Howal teaches you that. I mean, you go out into the field and it’s more of like a like an internship and that’s what I got originally. And you work with him and you find out the wrong way to do things and you find the right way to do things.
and he’s a coach that, you know, helps you to understand how things are going, you know, how to take data, how to take statistics, how to get it right, and how to publish, and how to how to make it so that the community, the scientific community will accept what you’re doing.
And that’s so so important. A lot of people come out of school and they go right into it and find out that they’re, you know, they’re just not very good grounded scientists because they really don’t know how to make that that discovery and make it believable by the whole community.
And were you sort of surprised like how much of a change was it for you before you really started interfacing with Dr.
Putoff uh versus after was it did he like you know completely open a new world or had you experienced anything uh anomalous beforehand before Skinwalker Ranch?
>> So for that type so when I first started there this was back in 2010ish um I was working on quantum mechanical experiments and doing things like that.
So, you know, it was it was being involved in some of the, you know, you know, fringy type of things, but not not the woo type of things. Um, but then Bigalow brought back all this data from skinwalker. That was in the era when Bigalow was finished and and Hal Puto was his science adviser. So, a lot of the data came back to his organization in Texas. And I started looking at that and started thinking like somebody investigating a phenomena that you can’t you know measure and and feel and see.
It’s some unknown phenomena that I started investigating. And that’s when I started to realize that this stuff is is there. It’s true. It’s making it’s making differences in people’s life.
It’s making different uh differences in the in the environment. And that’s when I started to basically fell in love with that subject. And let’s let’s talk about Skinwalker Ranch. I’m actually a huge huge huge fan of the show. How did you become involved in that?
>> So when Bigalow sold the property, he, you know, talked to Hal and Hal was, you know, very supportive and he was looking for somebody to actually get it and he Hal knew um Brandon Pugle. He also knew him from some other things that they had done. You know, called up Brandon said, you know, would you like to buy this piece of property? And um they you know they they got together and they they bought the property and then Hal stayed on as science adviser to Brandon for you know the first incarnation of his ownership. And then when Brandon said look you know I don’t have anybody to to do science or do investigations he said well you know we’ve got we’ve got a guy here that you know has all this ability has done a lot of things. Um they were they were at that time looking at so when I worked with Hal on Skinwalker Ranch stuff who was always on medical events medical events that happened where people got significantly hurt and when Brandon took over the property he was starting to see people getting hurt.
So he he went to Hal and said, you know, what do you what do you got? You know, can you give me a scientist that I can work with that’ll help me understand what the heck’s going on my property?
And I and myself and another scientist was uh basically assigned to Skinwalker Ranch to help them figure things out, you know, on an ongoing basis.
>> When you were first assigned to this, were you kind of skeptical of what was going on in terms of the physical injuries? What, you know, what did you sort of think that you were walking into before you actually showed up on showed up on the ranch? So I never physically went there while I was looking at the data from Big Bigalow, but from Bigalow’s data, it was apparent there was something going on because he had, you know, he he was very stringent with his scientific investigation. He had people walking the the property every day and taking seismographic, taking electromagnetic spectrum all over the property. So I was seeing anomalies happening well before I even got to the ranch. Um, but when I got to the ranch, I was allowed to do instrumentation and, you know, interview people that were having medical events and and it just like a lot of things started to click and make a lot of sense to say, well, you know, phenomena that happens over here, you know, it could be caused by something that’s happening over here.
So, you start piecing it together in your mind.
>> Okay. So, let’s let’s go to the first day that you walk on to Skinwalker Ranch. Walk me through that. What did you feel? what did you measure and what was the first sort of anomalous thing you experienced there?
>> So, there was a point of time when, you know, we did go and investigate. There was an injury that that occurred on the ranch that myself and and a medical doctor went to investigate and we, you know, we we actually went to the hospital, looked at their medical records, did all that kind of stuff. But when you get to the property, as soon as you pass the gates, you get this feeling that there like there’s something there.
There’s something not normal, you know?
Not I wouldn’t say normal. There’s something that you’re you’re you’re passing you’re going over a threshold where you know you’re basically entering a place that has this entity there.
Something is there and you can feel it and sense it. So as soon as you cross the gate that’s that’s the first thing you feel. And as you get more and more in there and you start walking around and looking at the places and being shown different areas you start seeing this you know there is something very strange and you always looking over your shoulder like what the heck’s going on over there?
Yeah, I I actually I don’t know if I don’t know. We we’ll see. But if if Brandon ever invites me there, I would really have to kind of, you know, really kind of think about whether that’s uh I I’m would feel safe safe going there.
But this this 2017 injury that kind of started all of this with without like breaking confidentiality, of course.
>> Sure.
>> What exactly was this injury? So it was reported back to the medical doctor um that this person suffered some type of lesion in the back of the head, some injury that they felt that was not caused by some natural thing like they there was no trauma involved or anything like that. And the medical doctor actually came to the conclusion that whatever it was was happening some something had entered his body to do this to make this injury happen. So we went there and we looked around, looked for possibilities, wrote a report. Um, this is all funded by a um howal putoff sponsor. So this is nothing to do with Brandon. This is all to do with how putoff funded the whole investigation wrote the report for our the sponsor.
And you know the conclusion was that with there was some type of electromagnetic energy that was present on the property during the time that the person might have been there but later found out that the person was actually not on the property when the when he had gotten hurt. Um he was you know off you know traveling someplace else. So, you know, that was a kind of a not so much a let down, but it was more of a okay, that’s a data point. You know, that’s that’s interesting.
>> But that was the the impetus to say, okay, well, this is a neat little area.
You know, Skinwalker is a great great I used to call it, you know, one of the one of the best scientific laboratories because it’s very contained and a lot of things happen. But come to find out that the entire Uint basin is just chock full of the exact same type of things. So even though it doesn’t really happen too often on skinwalker, it happens a lot out in the um basin. So that’s when I kind of turned out and said, “Look, you know, let’s look around and see what else is going on here.” >> Yeah, it certainly seems that that the whatever’s happening there is is quite uh quite extensive off the ranch with the people that I’ve spoken with as well. So did you actually >> ever like stay on the ranch? Did you sleep there or were you like, “No, I’m going to stay at a hotel. not not hang out.
>> Yeah, I was Yeah, we were in Vernal, which is uh probably 20 30 mi away.
>> But, you know, I knew people that slept there and you know, they always reported some weird things going on and there was some instrumentation that was placed there that actually showed that there was some weird things happening during the evening when they they say things were happening. So, you know, it was very apparent that there was some phenomena on the property that was causing people to have these very profound experiences. Now on the TV show which again I I freaking it’s the only reality show that that I watch actually >> I was only on first season so >> Right. Right. So uh they talk about this or Dr. Travis Taylor talks about this 1.6 gigahertz signal that’s being detected repeatedly.
Did you observe that signal during your time? And can you explain you know or have any hypotheses as far as what this 1.6 6 GHz energy seems to be.
>> So I did not during that time. It wasn’t really discovered I think well like a couple years later. Um and on that property so but we I did sense that type of frequency in other areas of the basin. So it’s it is it is in the way.
So you have to realize that underneath that whole area it’s just full of caverns >> and electromagnetic energy. Yeah.
electromagnetic energy low some might some are filled to water some are empty but there’s a lot of caverns under the whole thing. So even though it’s like all this desert and mountainous area underneath is like this this whole ecosystem has got like tons of things under there >> and electromagnetic energy no matter where it emanates from will travel down there down those caverns and and end up in places that you would never think of.
So it’s probably what my speculate is and and we found this I uh you know when I was at Blindf Ranch in fact I I spent a lot of time on on Blind Frog Ranch we measured that particular frequency not so much in that band but we measured things close to that band and I just speculate that there’s a lot of oil drilling going on and they communicate in that frequency range and there’s a lot of other things going on you know in that area that might just attribute to that frequency >> and it travels long long distances.
>> And you’re saying that frequency is used in in in oil drilling?
>> Yeah. So they communicate with the heads and you know, you know, they they put these these drill heads out and they go cruising through the surface and they’re go horizontal and they’re communicating with it. So those communications are, you know, high energy microwaves that are, you know, traveling through the earth. And one thing that people don’t realize that when you take a electromagnetic beam and you send it through the earth, it will actually change frequency as it goes through different materials. So what started off as maybe two 2 GHz might after it went through some material end up to be 1.6.
So it fools you sometimes because what they call they call these things wave guides and wave guides are something that people use all the time. Um and then but you can do frequency changes.
You can say these harmonics like yeah I’m sure you’ve seen it’s like when when somebody strums a like a guitar you hear you don’t hear a perfect signal you hear a signal plus a little bit of sideband so it sounds kind of fuzzy and those are those are harmonics and then so when you get these oil drills that are they’re pinging and they’re doing all sorts of stuff we might be hearing harmonics um that are not the true signal but something that’s related to that signal.
So I’m not saying that it’s not yeah it’s very possible that it’s some other thing but when they get consistent and they repeatable things then you have to question whether or not this is something that may not be natural but it’s something that might be human uh generated. Now, on the uh in the book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, the OSAP report documented things like cameras having their wires physically ripped out, but like as I understand it, like other cameras that were maybe aimed at the camera uh that had its wires ripped out, didn’t record anything. Did you experience any kind of equipment sab sabotage? I can’t talk this morning.
Sabotage or anything that just completely was bizarre?
>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So it was like it actually during the uh the filming cuz I was you know during the first season they had a lot of cameras there a lot of electronics and constantly batteries were being drained and this won’t work drones won’t fly and it’s like it’s kind of funny cuz you’re out in the middle of nowhere literally in the middle of nowhere. So you there’s no big industrial thing. It’s you know basically you could see oil wells you know being all over you know and on the horizon but right there there’s nothing.
You said what the heck is causing all these crazy things to happen? So when you know people say don’t is there some strange phenomena there that I don’t know it’s it’s it basically it’s it’s interfacing with the equipment and making the equipment not functional.
>> Well and what what’s crazy too is like I I think it’s like one thing if there’s some kind of electronic jamming but for like things to be physically disconnected I mean that’s >> that’s strange. Yeah. I’ve never seen I haven’t seen things like that, but I’ve seen electronic which heavily relies on electromagnetic and and a lot of gamma particles. So, you get when when things are going on and you get a lot of high energy things in the environment, you get a lot of gammaray showers, you know, seeing things just decaying and you get these crazy particles that come out and then that gets into the electronics and electronics of course is going to, you know, they’re going to reset. They’re going to batteries are going to drain.
They’re going to do all sorts of crazy things. So, we measured quite a bit of uh gamma ray in or high energy particles well above the microwave range out in that area and all over the all over the basin.
>> One of the things that I’ve noticed on the show at least as far as how they tell the story is like right before right when a test is is to begin like they set all the equipment up. I’m sure they test it and whatnot. Then when they go to actually run the test, it’s as if the phenomenon knows and it actively starts interfering with the equipment at at that moment in time. Did you see any kind of correlation with that like like you almost felt like the phenomenon was uh you know like you guys were actively being watched?
>> Yeah. So, you get that, like I said, you get that feeling that you when you’re in that in that environment that there’s something on the outside that’s intervening into what you’re doing. And, you know, so, and Bigalow was so and that’s one of the reasons Bigalow sold his property is because he just got so frustrated with it is that he would set up an experiment, spend, you know, lots of time and and personnel getting things set up and then when he would run the experiment, nothing would happen there.
But, you know, 100 yards over here where nobody’s looking, some crazy thing would happen. You know, one of the pieces of equipment would break down or or you know, one of his big caterpillars would would stop working or something like that. So, and and that’s fairly typical and that happens a lot. I mean, so a lot of equipment hap a lot of equipment problems. So, we have people in our in our study throughout the unit to basin that constantly complain that they’re always changing their every, you know, every year they have to change their TV out. every year they have to get a new washer dryer. So, it’s like for some reason whatever’s going on here and we’re, you know, we’re hoping to measure a lot of these things and we have measured it that we can get to the bottom of what is causing these these things that affect people and it affects physically equipment and dogs go barking and and things, you know, things are physically changing. in your tests when when you were there did like what what kind of um sort of anomalies would you see in terms of and again I’m not like a scientist I you know barely uh barely barely graduated college uh but in terms of like data points that would be completely off the sort of baseline would you see things like RF energy spike or whatnot during these exper uh experiments or what were the sort of things signal-wise that you would cord that seemed to indicate that there was some kind of sort of active interference going on.
>> So, one of the interesting things that happens in that area, especially, you know, in the the higher uh you basin up more towards the canyon, uh we were experiencing a lot of gyroscopic. So if you look at the actual, you know, what we what we live in our our, you know, space time, you know, there’s a lot of energy that’s holding us together, but it when you have something high energy that enters it, it has a tendency to shake a little bit and wiggle and turn a little bit. So there’s a uh a sensor called a gyroscope. A gyros, you know, a gyroscope that basically measures how much this metric is twisting. that seems to be the one that gets pinged a lot and it creates an anomaly and it’s also one of the things that you can’t fake.
There’s no way on earth that you’re going to change. You’re going to go and wiggle this thing without changing anything else. So, that was one of the indications that we started to see a lot of gyroscopic motion, meaning that something entered the atmosphere or something entered the environment that was very energetic and actually turned a little bit you and it’s a very slight thing. It’s like, you know, microns of of twisting that cause this sensor to have these anomalous blips. And I can actually show you a few of these are uh pretty profound sometimes.
>> Wow.
>> But then you know the typical gamma ray.
So you get these gammaray uh showers that come in unexplained and you know basically we measure those during times when people say that they’ve had some very strange experiences like they would have this you know the point where they kind of lose a little conscious that they they go you know slight catatonia just for a second and then when you look at the data you say wait a minute exactly when you told me that you know I saw this big gamma ray spike so that’s probably what your brain was doing was you know trying to um contend with the energy coming in there. Before we get back to our interview, real quick, if you’re not subscribed, hit that button, ring the bell, leave a comment, give us a thumbs up. I know it sounds like a lot, but here’s why it matters. YouTube sees all of that and basically says to itself, “Hey, maybe we should recommend this good trouble show to people who don’t know that it actually exists yet.” That’s how this works. Also find us on all the major podcast platforms if you would like to listen to us on the go.
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Means the world to us. So, uh, let’s get back to the interview with Dr. Jim Sagala. So, what is your personal theory? Like, do you think that there’s something physical buried under Skinwalker Ranch? Like based on maybe your sensor data or your your anything that you saw, what is your personal opinion as far as what may be going on there? like do you think there’s a craft buried under Skinwalker Ranch under the Mesa? Uh you a underground command post that maybe has US personnel in it? Any any kind of theories?
>> Well, the big theory that I’ve always established is that there is an energy on the property and you know again all over the place and it interacts with not the property interact interacts with the people on the property. So you can leave that that and it’s happened you you know basically that property gets left for 11 months and then you know everybody descends on it to make a a show for one month or two months out of the year.
During the off time very little happens.
There’s nothing that’s going on. It’s when you introduce people into the property. It’s when you start seeing all the crazy things going on in the in the and the scientifically relevant type of phenomena that you can actually draw conclusions off of happen when there’s somebody on the property. And the better the person is at actually um experiencing these things and they’re in tune to it and it’s you know something Gary Nolan has worked a lot on um the bigger the anomalies are the more profound the anomalies are. So one of the conclusions not it’s not a conclusion you can never really conclude anything is that you have to intermix the people into it and I think that’s what this phenomena is interacting with the people the property is a conduit or a place that is has a higher energy value or a lower energy value depending on you know what the type of energy you’re looking at but for the most part when you introduce people that’s when the stuff happens. So, so in a way it’s like the people kind of act really sort of as antennas and certain people certain people’s antennas seem to be more attuned to picking up whatever this stuff is.
>> Yeah. If you think about it, this phenomena, why would the phenomena want to go to a place where there’s nothing, you know, sentient objects are, I think, one of one of the more more interesting things to investigate if they were interacting with something and there’s nothing on the property. That kind of sounds a little boring to, you know, to do. We wouldn’t do that. We wouldn’t go out in the middle of the desert and and set up to look at a barren place. We would wait to to have some trees or or whatever. So, you have to think that they basically interacting with us and then we are the ones that are actually the reason that this phenomena has gained some insight into what we’re doing and and what’s going on the property. Speaking as someone that’s worked on reality TV and I again not a big fan of it, but I know in some of the reality shows that I’ve worked on in my professional career in television, a lot of what you end up seeing in the end as far as what the audience sees is is really kind of pretty heavily produced.
Did any of that sort of thing happen on that particular show or you know what you saw on camera was pretty much uh what what you would regularly what you would see if you weren’t on camera?
>> Well, that’s a really good question and I don’t I don’t want to step on their toes or or you know anyway, but one of the reasons that I left uh was because it’s a it was a lot of drama. It was a lot of >> sure >> um you know you know that’s what if you think it is a reality show and that’s what they want.
>> So and it was it was very difficult to do the science stuff there that we would do an experiment and then that was it.
You know they would just basically say well we just wanted to film the experiment and then we didn’t really want to do anything with it. So it kind of got a little disheartening. That’s why I said you know that’s not a really cool place to do it. And that’s why I said I’m going to go look to other places. So you know TV’s TV. Yeah. Um Hollywood’s Hollywood. So, they’re going to they’re going to make it entertainable. Uh, or that thing. One of the things I don’t, you know, I don’t know if I was on a show, Blind Frog Ranch. That’s a different that’s a different venue. That is more of a discovery show where they’re actually looking for something and it’s more scientific and they don’t do those kind of things. They don’t care about drama.
They they really care about discovery and they care about things like that.
So, that’s a little different.
>> Gotcha. Okay. So, so you leave after season one. What happens after that?
What’s what’s the sort of next thing you move on to?
>> Well, see that was interesting. So, when I did leave, uh, all the people that I interfaced with in the basin contacted me and said, you know, we need your expertise to help us cuz they were actually involved in some of the the work that I was doing um during that that time. You know, we were interfacing with these people, talking to them, and I I got reached out by literally, you know, like 50 people and said, you know, where the hell did you go? Um, you have to help us. um you’re we we started to feel a little better about all the crazy things happening in our life since you were there helping us trying to understand it. So that’s when I kicked off the first study um through you know funding from HAL um where we said okay you’re going to you’re going to you know log all these things you’re going to have an instrument that that that kind of looks at your environment and records and we’re going to try to understand what’s going on when it goes on what you’re feeling how does it go away how does it come in so that was the first study that we kicked off back you know back in 2019 >> and this is the Mupas system correct >> this was the first incarnation it wasn’t called that at that time. But this is the first incarnation of that whole study funded by HAL and basically the idea to understand what the what are these people experiencing and why are they having these profound experience.
Most of the people that were contacted that contacted us had medical evidence that something happened to them. you know, they would have, you know, some lesions. They would have, you know, some some subcutaneous um objects in their in their bodies that they they had medical reports that showed it or they would have things that were very strange in their brain. You know, some um traumatic brain brain injury that they couldn’t explain. It wasn’t traumab based, but it was sure enough there. Um you we’re going to talk about um some other stuff like the Havana syndrome stuff that is very very similar to the things that were going on in the basin at that time which was a a you know a big question mark and said what the heck’s going on here if people in Havana are having similar things going on.
>> So and before we kind of dig into some of your presentations which you have some some amazing stuff there just in in kind of a a general overall sense what are these detectors listening for recording? Is it radiation, magnetic fields, uh heat, uh you know, what are what would be some of the things that you would want to collect on?
>> Well, there’s two two sides of that. One is we want to know what are the things that are in the environment that change when something energetic comes in and then what are the second question is what are the things in the environment?
What are the values in the environment that could affect our physiology and make us have these profound experiences like go into a catatonic shock shock or have an experience or see a craft or something like that. So you you get you know the cast of characters would then be you know gamma rays um electromagnetic energy um your IMU your acceleration vector your magnetic vector um gravity vector your gyroscopic vector infrasound is a biggie. So when when big things come in your area, you get these infrasounds that travel over the earth.
>> Um any kind of indicators like that. Um initially we didn’t do any biometrics, but now we’re getting into the biometrics where we’re actually looking at tremors and heart rate and and blood pressures and and watching that spike while people are having these experiences. But that’s that’s the first thing. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
>> No, no, please not cut off. Well, that was the first, you know, the first thing we did is that looked we said, well, let’s let’s figure out what we want to do, put it all in there and figure out which are very important ones.
>> So, that’s what we kind of did.
>> And as I understand it during that first phase of the study, participants didn’t know what you were measuring and you didn’t know what they experienced until you sort of correlated the data later.
Is that do I?
>> Right. They they never well some of like one or two of them did but most of them there was 36 participants that came in and out and we didn’t really have 36 um we had more than that but we like some of them weren’t very good and then we swapped them out but we had maybe 50 anyway um those those people wouldn’t really see their data um what they would do is that every day they would go and they would journal they would put in their narratives like you know today I had this at four o’clock you know I felt like you know somebody was watching me blah blah blah And then what we would do is then take that data because we were getting all the data real time and then we would store it up in the cloud and then we would take their narratives and then we would match it with what was ever going on in their environment. So like if they had a watch or something like that or they had a device and then we would see correlations and we had some rules that that we didn’t really have any good we wouldn’t accept a data point unless it you know fell into some metric and so we had some rules established on what constitutes a really good data point. Um then we would then filter all the other ones out. And it turned out that over the 3 years that we ran the study with 36 people, we only got out of the thousands and thousands of possible points, we only kept 300 of them.
>> Okay.
>> So, which is not a lot. I mean, that’s that’s pretty small percentage, but those were good points um that we we collected. So they wouldn’t know that, but we would then go back after the fact like maybe a few days later or some even a week later and we would tell them during this time you had this experience and and you had this. So this is this is a methodology that it’s it’s a reinforcement thing to keep people interested and but not skew them. That the important thing was never to skew their data or put their personal knowledge into the experiment which would be you know of course you want to do double blinds and things like that.
And was it was this device using kind of like commercial off-the-shelf technology or or was it sort of purpose-built for these sort of observations?
>> Well, it was just constructed of these little sensors that you can buy. They call me MEMS sensors. They’re very very tiny little sensors that basically are these micro micro mechanical devices within these integrated chips that you that are like the the gyroscopic and the all those little sensors. They’re tiny little little devices. And then we packaged all that into one little thing that people could put on their on their table or, you know, even in the watch.
And so it was off the shelf, but we packaged it and made it nice and clean for people to uh put in their environment.
>> At the end of the study, were you able to correlate certain signals with a particular experience? like if somebody claimed they were abducted that they would have a certain set of signals that would be outliers versus if they somebody said they saw an orb. Was there any sort of pattern that you could sort of determine based on what the person was experiencing?
>> Yeah. Um so in fact I could show you the actual report. Um in fact it’s online and I can show you where it is but we established that we were able to we came to a statistical um um success of 4.5 sigma which means that if somebody else report so if somebody else did the experiment with completely different people different they would come up within you know 045 sigma of what we came up with and we were able to predict remember the 300 that I talked about those those data points points. We were able to predict those data points within some statistical um accuracy and like I said that was just a major accomplishment to be able to get. Now, it’s not great. You know, 4.5 is not great. We really wanted five. Five is like the golden um statistical mean, but we didn’t. We only had 36 people. So, now what we’re doing is we’re increase that up to 10,000 people. And now we hope to push it well past the five sigma. So five sigma is like the accepted scientific standard that when you publish with the five sigma result you you you get passed through the the um the review process.
>> Now phase two of the study which is currently what’s going on how that came about. I think that story is pretty interesting. Tell us about that.
>> So um it was yeah actually was kind of interesting. So I I I after three years I sent an email to everybody and said you know guy this is great. I have all this information. and I wrote my report.
Everything’s, you know, I got this result. Thank you so much. And it went away. And so, and I said, you know, you can keep the equipment. You can do whatever you want. I don’t really, you know, never want it back. Um, and then I started getting phone calls from people.
He says, you know, this this this stuff changed my life. I now can deal with what’s going on um in my life because I had this I I I had this ability to to get my narratives and and journal and have this device and see these things and know somebody was watching over me that you know crazy things weren’t going to happen. So these start people started to ask me said what the hell you doing?
You can’t just stop. Um so after a while and then there was um a group of people in the there was a a group of people that represented a bunch of experiencers that contacted me and said you know what can we do to help you become a uh you know to kick off the next phase of your study. So you know I I’m not going to say that I I was brought into this kicking and screaming but I I was like the I thought we ended it. I thought he wrote a report and I submitted the report. Um but then you know they said we want we want you to uh continue this thing and and one of the people that were in the original study came to me and said look you know if you do kick off another study we want to fund it. So they said we’re going to pay for whatever devices that people would need to join your study. So now the phase two we I I said okay so we we kicked off phase two. We redesigned everything to make it a little bit more easy for people to use and have uh made it much cheaper. Um got somebody to fund it to actually pay for the devices when people uh want to you know take them and um so now we’ve got I think we’re I have to ask my wife who’s who handles all that.
I think we’re approaching uh we’re approaching the 500 or the 400 mark I think. though which is a lot more than 30 >> um been there all over the world >> and that was another issue that we had with um the first study is that it was concentrated in that you went to basin area um but we did have stuff around the United States but nothing outside the United States now we’re all over the place they’re in Australia there’s there ones going to Puerto Rico um they’re all over the place >> I’m curious during that first study so you said like the the majority of the sensors were in the Yatah basin or am I saying that right? Yatah.
>> Yeah, I think it’s >> UA.
Okay.
>> Yeah. Uh anyway, uh did you find that people that were not in the Uenta basin, they had like maybe the same sort of uh intensity of of signal or or during the same sort of like a person that saw a orb in Los Angeles, did they have sort of the same sort of signatures as someone that saw it in the Utah basin or or was tended to have like higher numbers if I’m sort of describing that correctly.
>> Um, so is more frequent. I would say more frequent there. The intensity I I would say no because one of the metrics that we went through or we had is that they had to have a certain level of so we send everything through an AI LLM which basically gives us the intensity of what they’re narrating to us, right?
they’ll they’ll put a like a a paragraph to describe what it is and then we put it through this AI model which says you know this person had an intensity of you know one through or or one through 10 and they would give us like an eight and so they all seem to have and we had a threshold that had to be above like a I think it was four in order to even qualify as a point but most of the people that put these narratives in all had these intensities well into the high you know eights and things like that. So when they say that they had an experiment experience and they you know felt like they went out of their body or they saw something they saw an orb they saw a crowd they all had the same intensity and then the signals were basically the same as well. So the instrumentation would pick up these signals they were all basically the the pinnacle of it or the height of it were usually the same. So it would get up to 22k or get up to 23k. Um, and that might just be a function of the of the equipment that’s measuring. But what you find is that in you went to basin, it was more regular. They instead of doing it all instead of having an event like once every month or once every two months, some of the people you went to BAS would have one like every two weeks or things like that. So it’s just more more regular.
>> Um, so let’s let’s talk about phase two.
You you mentioned you have new equipment and whatnot. Can you show us some of that and maybe sort of how the uh how the signals and everything work?
>> All right. So, this is the portal that the participants would view and most of it is the historical data. So, you can see I’ve got three different devices up here. One at Blind Frog Ranch, which is just a device that’s sitting out there in Blind Frog Ranch. There’s one in Helin Valley right now. Um, you know, they’re deep into their day. I don’t even know what time. Oh, it’s what late Oh, it’s in the morning actually. That’s interesting. Um, and then there’s another test device here. But basically what you see here is what the data is from these devices that are out in the all over the world and it’s collecting continually collecting data. And you can see that you know as as I go through my day um these these waveforms change and I can go through and select all sorts of different things like I can for my device I can this is the geer counter that’s looking at radiation. um gamma rays. Um this is this is the um so this is the magnometer. So this is something that if you look at this this is the magnetic field that’s around you and this is the gyroscopic. Now right now there’s really nothing going on. But you know if I maybe switch to say okay how’s it going for the entire day? You know this is the look for the this is the look for the entire day that um that we’re going through. So we’ll put it back to hour and then so basically this is what the system is gathering continuously throughout the day. So for this device or say Blind Frog Ranch we’ll look at Blind Frog Ranch’s data and basically what what you get here is just like these waveforms that come through. Now this is not a very big spike right here.
That’s only 11K. Um, usually when you have anomalous events, they’re probably up into the 22, 32, you know, something like you’ll see a major device. Um, but then you might see also a gamma spike.
So, if you look over here, you know, this is the gamma uh one of the gamma sensors in the x direction that’s, you know, going horizontal and maybe there’s a, you know, big spike there. If we get a big spike at the same time that we have a spike in one of the other fields, that’s when we consider it to be a something of significance and something that we want to look at. And then of course we can switch over to some real time stuff and look at it in real time.
And then we can see, you know, what’s going on with we can see what’s going on with the data in real time.
>> Amazing. and is and clearly there’s there’s and this stuff is like it’s it’s recording 24/7, right?
>> Yeah. So, it’s streaming back to the cloud. So, we use the Azure which is Microsoft’s cloud which is all HIPPA compliant and basically you know you can’t break into it. So, whatever data gets up there is safe. So, the a lot of our all of our participants are very worried about you know their personal data things like that. So we make sure that everything that they do is all protected from you know anybody intrusion or something like that. And so what we also have so these are three devices that I’m looking at. One that has valley black ranch and then a test device but we also have a lot of other devices available for people. So we’ve got these public devices all throughout the the world basically that when you become a a um when you become a member of the study you get to monitor any. So we we got wrestling Forest. We’ve got um this is a person down in Chile that has a really really amazing things going on.
We got Carl the Crusher which is somebody Oh, that’s the person you know.
Yeah, that’s one of his his um his device that he’s made public. Very nice of him.
>> Um and then we have a bunch of other ones. Thunderst Strike Ranch was another um ranch in Uenta Basin that is very very crazy. And then you know so we have all these and then you have what’s great is that you also have access to your own personal devices. So I’ve got a bunch of personal devices I can look at >> and then I have other data feeds. So I can look at ADSB I can look at satellite trackers you know all within this the confines of of this system that I can monitor these things and you know I can look at imagery. Um so this is imagery coming from the device. Um these are spectrums coming from the device >> and these are all things that you know you can look at. So but when somebody enters a study a lot of this stuff we don’t let them see for another 3 days.
So although it’s it’s you know current right now on mine so this is my device and I get real time um somebody else would come in and not be able to see this for 3 days cuz we want them to not influence what’s going on and say oh you know look at that you know I had an experience and stuff like that and then they would come over here into this area and they would enter like you know on you know whatever date that I had a strange sensation that somebody was watching me and they can upload pictures I mean so and then like over here they say I woke up and there was you know there was uh you know while I was walking outside I felt lightheaded and I looked up and saw so this is their journal system that they can go and they can add you know whatever they want into the system and provide us with some if you know some narrative or this is their journaling system that that they’re allowed to do. Um so this is all super private. Nobody has access to this except for them and basically even we don’t see it. I mean, we don’t we don’t really look at this data. We have our AI models look at them that pull out all the information that we’re interested in seeing.
>> Yeah, that was actually going to be my next question. I’m looking at this going, “Wow, this is a ton of uh a ton of uh data to to process and was curious how how you how you analyze that.” Uh I mean, that’s got to be just a bucketload of stuff every day. So at at 1:00 in the morning, uh what happens is that we have something kicks off, a little program, not a a big program that kicks off that takes all the data from all 300 devices and all the annotations that have been put in throughout the day. They run it through a model and it looks to see um it looks for events that happen. Um this is just a sample of this particular device. So like for instance there was a you know there’s you know sudden spike in humidity and then there is you know there is there is things that are created by this this this device doesn’t have anything. This is a test device, so it doesn’t really have anything, but the these devices get this these um events that happen that are then sent out as an alert or notification to people. So, they don’t really have to look at, you know, they don’t have to look at this thing constantly, but we have these AI bots that go in and look for these anomalies. They try to find a point where like the incident reports and the narratives match up with some anomalous event that actually creates these um these notifications that we send out. So people are basically are going to sit there and then they can click on the notification and see what the data looked like you know back you know they’ll get the notification like if something happened right now to somebody you know in a couple days from now they would get a notification to say you know back 2 days ago this is what happened here’s the data that happened and then it lets them kind of understand what’s going on and it gives them a sense of a powerful sense of being able to control what’s going on because they can actually see it once you can measure or something, you basically get this feeling of control.
>> And so when when you left phase when phase one ended and and uh you started hearing from these people, I I was curious like, you know, what about this made them sort of feel better about what was going on. So essentially, as I understand it, the fact that they’re able to see data and go, okay, yeah, I didn’t imagine that. Something did obviously, >> right? Something did happen, right? And that’s um and that’s a that’s a way of doing it. I forgot what the exact name of it is, but that’s a psychological thing that that a lot of interviewers do to reinforce that to make them really want to really want to be more explicit with their narratives and be more involved in the system. So, um these are if we could I’m going to switch screens on you a little bit. Here is some of the >> um anomalies that happened over the past where you could see like this is the gyroscope and it it made a very funny thing but at the same time somebody put a narrative and sometimes they sign off and allow me to actually put the narratives in like lights flickered uh phones glitched. Um so something happened and at the same time we had this crazy reading in the gyroscopic uh sensor. Um, this is one where we had something happen, electromagnetic, uh, the microwave radiation sensor where we were going along, it looked like just random noise and all of a sudden crazy stuff happened. But every time this red box only occurs when we have a narrative associated with this data. So when we saw this data, well, you know, I didn’t physically see it. When the AI models saw this data, it said, “Oh, wait a minute. That’s crazy.” It looks up in the narratives and says is the narrative um enough to spark a data point and is it within some time frame of this of this event happening and then it kicks off says okay this is a valid point and then it you know it logs it and it sends out these alerts um I want to call them alerts notifications um so these are all events that happened you know we’ve got uh 300 of these um these are the good ones you know the things that really happened but you can see that there’s a spike here and around this time somebody, you know, made mention that something happened to them.
There was some spikes here. Uh my wife had a stabbing headache for 2 minutes. I see. So again, these are narratives that we were allowed to put on here because people signed off and they said, “Yeah, you can you can put these in.” But most of the stuff is super personal. Um >> right.
>> Um like for instance, the person said that orb was created, you know, there’s an orb here. Um a lot of things kind of happened during this time. So you know this is just a sampling that I wanted to show everybody that you know we do collect this crazy data that look you know this is an enormous spike you know how do you create that in nature without something anomalous happening so this is the kind of thing that the system’s looking for and trying to marrying it to what people are saying in their narratives and then it kicks off that point says okay yeah this is a legit point and it can be used you know in our in our scientific um investigation and then so that’s one of them. And then we had another situation where we instrumented a property um in New Hampshire and there was a whole bunch of people that got involved in this project. So like Gary Nolan uh uh Travis actually got involved with this, David Shraver and we actually instrumented this person’s property that was seeing almost every two or 3 weeks they were seeing these crafts that fly around and you can see these crafts.
they were they were taking pictures of them. And what we did is we instrumented it with one of our devices and we found out that it was this amazing situation that happened is that you know during one of these episodes where they saw something they you know they saw something um with their camera. So a camera took a picture of something on this is uh in 2024.
>> Okay. And during the time that that showed up, that orb showed up, we were getting this is the data that came out of there. So this green line was the gamma. And during that time, the gamma spike. Normally the gamma is this bottom line here. It just stays there all the time. And then all of a sudden when that orb showed up, it went crazy. And then this is this purple line here is actually when the orb was visible on the camera, but you can see it had this enormous spike. And this that’s that’s the green line. The blue line is the electromagnetic spectrum. Normally the blue line sits between these two red dotted lines and it just sits there and just you know just has wavy lines. But during the time when the orb was present it went way up and it just all this electromagnetic energy. And then this again with the mag this is the magnometer which is basically the magn the magnetism in the area like the gravity vector and things like that during the time the orb was present this thing just spiked and it spiked in the gyroscope as well. So that was one of the things back on the 24th in 2024.
Since then there’s been quite a few other ones that have happened that are probably just as good or maybe even better than this. This is one that we documented and was I’m allowed to actually show this one. The other ones I’m not allowed to show.
>> Sure.
>> And and and and were they seeing solid craft or just orbs?
>> Well, that’s the thing. We don’t know.
They illuminated in a camera.
>> So whether or not they were solid or not remains to be understood, but we know that they they were emanating um electromagnetic energy cuz we read it with a camera. So it was a it was a dot on a camera and when it appeared it gave off these signals but it wasn’t super fast. I mean most people think UFO is going to come screaming but it was slow.
It was going maybe you know maybe 100 miles an hour or not I mean like 10 miles an hour. It just went past his propert but then again it was way out there. So we don’t know how fast it was going actually because we we didn’t have a depth perception but it went by the property. It probably took about 10 minutes to go past the entire property.
>> So it was going pretty slow.
>> Yeah. So you Yeah. So and then of course we looked at ADSB. We said, “Is it an aircraft? Is it a satellite? Is we went through all of that stuff and then nothing was reported.” Um but we did get these crazy signals when it went through went by the property, but we were never able to understand what it physically was. Now the the spikes in gamma radiation is that enough to negatively affect a human who would be in that area >> you know yes because I’ve seen this happen I’ve seen this happen before um on devices to get to this level to get up to this level and that’s when people now this person didn’t report anything you know they the whole family was inside this was something that was all done outside at in the I think it was in the middle of the night >> um yeah this was I guess in the middle the night. Um but I’ve seen this magnitude of gamma and then people would report you know going back to this guy people would report I don’t have one available but um we do have some gamma spikes where people reported that they did have an experience they did you know feel that they were being watched or they had this out of body or they feel they were abducted or something like that.
>> Would would any of them with this amplitude have you know negative effects like overexposure to radiation type stuff? Um, so I also they upload so a lot of the people if we so I allow them to when they have incidences like that I allow them to upload pictures and they can I’ve had a lot of people like add in u pictures of like lesions or or rashes that appeared or something that happened on their face. So, we’ve got a lot of that that happened. And, you know, it is very surprising that, you know, these people love to put this stuff on there.
We don’t know who they are. You know, we I know who they are, but you know, the audience, the people that look at this stuff don’t know who they are, but, you know, they’re willing to provide this data for us to look at and use in our in our system. Um so it’s it’s very interesting that these people claim to have um experiences during those periods of anomalous signal show upload pictures of you know their anatomy that has like rashes and lesions and you know bloody noses and all sorts of things that happened to them. So yeah absolutely >> amazing. Now I would love to see what this equipment actually looks like.
>> Yeah. So, right now we have two different two different types of equipment. Um, right now we have the MUAS Mini, which is a desktop version. I can actually show you. Oops, I could show you that one. Okay.
>> Um, it’s a it’s a very small device that sits on your, you know, basically people put them in like their family room or their most visited part of the house where a lot of the experiences happened and they just sits there and it just collects data all day long. And you could plug in a whole bunch of stuff.
You can put plug in um radiation detectors. You can plug in camera, you know, some you can some people put cameras in them so they can get the anomalous um things going by and put the camera in the window looking up at the stars and um you can put in spectrometers and things like that into this device. So this is one of the devices that we have that we provide to them and they you know have the ability and then here’s all the sensors. So there’s accelerometers, the magnometers, there’s gyroscopes, there’s gravity sensors, um the acoustic sensors, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, um we even look at um V gases that, you know, might be making a difference. Um GPS, um then we also have an optional microwave sensor. And then we, you know, it all comes with a this this portal, you know, that I showed you that you can go online and, you know, view your data, view the notifications and all that kind of stuff and put in your narratives. And then we have another one. Um, this is our biometric.
Uh this actually is about a year old. We haven’t really um it wasn’t in the beginning, but we noticed that people kept saying that look, you know, when the cool thing happened, I’m not home. I’m out in my car. I’m in school. Um, so we said, “Okay.” Uh, so we came up with this Mupas Biometric, which is basically a a smartwatch that we connected to the system. And this thing actually does this really cool stuff. It it has heart rate. It has fine mo fine muscle motion, which means it can sense tremors. And this is what we use the the the tremor sensing is what we use to see what the excitement or the nervousness of the person is when they’re having these experiences, right? If somebody was calm and relaxed and everything was cool, you know, that that’s, you know, then maybe they’re not. But if it’s like they’re they’re shaking and things like that, that means that this is a significant experience that they were, you know, really getting into. And then you does all the same stuff. microwave uh does a little gamma. It has accelerometer and all this other stuff all built into it and it sits on your smartphone and then they have the same access to the you know all their data and stuff like that.
>> Okay.
>> So these are the two devices that we we have available that people have been uh using.
>> Wow.
>> And then we’ve got I think like I said I think we’re up to 400. I’d have to check but I think we’re up to 400. And and are you wanting to get to 10,000 and do you think you’ll reach that number?
>> We’re we’re funded to 10,000. So we have um so if you look at this is a write up that we provide for everybody to tell them that you know we’re funded you know come you know help us. So we need to get a So what we did is about when we first started the study, we said what do we need to reach the reach the goal of five sigma cuz right now we’re 4.5 sigma which is okay but not great. Um to get to phase two we said we want to go to five sigma which is the you know the standard for everything. And we did a calculation of what do we need for population? What do we need for statistics? What do we need for spread of devices? you know, we we want to have concentrations on devices. And we figured out we needed at least 10,000 um devices or experiencers worldwide to basically get to the point where we have the right amount of statistics. So 10,000 is our goal and our sponsor, the person that actually is funding this has has said that they would stick with us up to 10,000.
>> That’s Yeah, that’s a lot. And because I’m sure you’ll have the skeptics and the debunkers come back and say, “Oh, these were solar flares or somebody’s Wi-Fi or maybe a police car going by on on his radio.” >> Having this number of data points, does that >> solidify or or make uh producing a paper, a peer-reviewed paper more likely to pass? I would think it would.
>> Well, it is in that we’re marrying two.
The advantage that we have is that we’re not just taking the environmental data which you see here. So this is just one piece of the data. What we’re doing is we’re marrying in what these people are actually seeing through the incidences through reports. So when you take those together, it’s not if it’s a police car they went by, they wouldn’t have an experience. they wouldn’t be documenting um or you know if it was a solar flare they wouldn’t be documenting the things that actually make it so that data point is legit.
So we’re doing so we’re collecting data from the human and we’re collecting data from the environment and we’re marrying them together in a statistical model and that’s what makes it a relevant point.
Now, how does someone apply to be a part of this study? And do you have to pay for uh does a consumer, if you want to call them consumer, uh do they have to pay for the device? Like how does all of that work?
>> Yeah. So, basically, it’s all written up in here and what you have to do. So, we basically ask you to, you know, to sign up. You sign up and we ask for a onetime fee, which is the fee to make sure that we don’t get like hordes of people coming in. So, and then we return that fee after they’re in, you know, because we got a lot of people that come in and they don’t, you know, they don’t follow through and it’s like, okay. Um, so we just ask for like 30 bucks and then and we give it back to them. Um, and then they we ask them to take a survey and their survey is important because if we don’t we don’t know something about them, then we really can’t understand what’s going on with them. So, we ask them to fill out a survey, which gives us a little information about them.
Then, they select one of the devices, either a mini or a watch. And then basically they, you know, they sign an agreement that says they won’t throw it in the garbage and then we send send it to them. Um, and then what we do is we ask them to contribute a certain amount per month that we send back to them if they participate regularly. So we have people that don’t pay anything because they’re constantly going on putting in narratives. What we want when we have somebody come into the study, we want them to put in narratives. So if they, you know, if they come in every day and they put in narratives, then basically they don’t really pay anything and we give them the money back for the $30, but and then we also don’t charge them for, you know, if they participate and they’re actively putting in narratives and they’re participating in the study, then they’re basically don’t doesn’t cost them a penny.
And then here’s if they if anybody’s interested here’s you know you could look at the QR you could scan the QR code or go to this um this site to get to actually it’s this page over here that you know that you come to but this is the site that we have.
>> Now how long do you get to keep this device or or how long is phase 2 going to last? Let’s say I got one tomorrow.
How long how long would I have this thing?
>> That’s a good question. Um I think that people are going to get what happened if it happened the same way is that people experiencers don’t stop experiencing they have these profound experiences throughout their lives when once they start they continue to do things for a very long period of time. So I would estimate that these people would not want to give up and stay in the study because it gives them that sense of control over what’s going on with them.
So, I don’t really have anything to say that, you know, it’s going to end after a year or something like that. My goal is to get to uh to Sigma 5.0 Sigma. Once I get to that point, you know, who knows? I would like to continue and move on and do other things and experiment and do a lot of interpersonal experiments like have people like try to um see if they can influence other other members and you know try to make it so they can uh intent on somebody else and change their data without their data actually um being affected by some environmental signals.
Yeah, that is really amazing and because I think so many people we’re all used to hearing the stories which most of which I believe but to see that there’s actually data scientific data that correlates with it I think that is that is really something I’m I’m curious like the whole alien abduction thing you’ll hear people say yeah you know I was saw these beings at the foot of my bed floated out of the room etc. And then you’ll also hear people say that it was more of like a dream or they feel that it happened but it was like in a dream state. Have you noticed any difference between the two in terms of signals?
>> Yeah. So we do get the both. Um you do get the people that feel they were physically abducted and the people that feel that they their conscious was abducted.
>> And I think the conscious abducted is prevalent. I mean it’s I mean like hundred one that that are the quantity.
>> So but the people that feel that they’re conscious where they feel that they’ve gone someplace or they were brought someplace either on a craft or or someplace remote and they interacted with what what was ever there. So they feel that they physically left their body and you of course they don’t feel that they you know I shouldn’t say physically their you know their their consciousness consciousness left their body. um the people that claim that they physically were abducted, those people sometimes don’t really and and what’s interesting is that the narratives that you get from these people, you could put it through the their AI models and see exactly, you know, you know, did they go away? Did they did they were they frightened? Were they anxious? Were they you know, what was their sentiment at that particular point? And what you find out is that the people that feel that uh have been, you know, basically their consciences abducted have much more profound experiences than people that say that they were physically abducted.
So you would tend to believe that, you know, there’s a big difference between the two of them. But there’s a lot of problems with physical abduction. You know, how did you get, you know, how did they get you through the walls? How did they do all these things? But your consciousness is an intellectual thing that seems to be a lot better to understand and and rationalize how that could happen.
So, like you said, I barely passed college, and I certainly certainly failed college physics, but I this thought came to me one day, and I’m curious if if you think that it it could this hypothesis could be possible, cuz I was thinking it’s like, okay, you know, you you hear in the literature all these people, you know, floating, you know, through walls or through the ceiling or beings coming through the walls and whatnot. And so, I’ve been thinking, it’s like, well, how how would that physically happen? And I remembered the the graphic on um on the uh the the oh my god the documentary that just uh came out um having a scene.
>> Oh yeah, the one that just Yeah, you’re I’ve got to tell.
>> Yeah, we’re both Yeah, the folks at home probably know what we’re talking about, but this it was this graphic that show showed this kind of like uh time spacetime warp bubble around the craft.
So I thought, okay, well, what if the mechanical way of them doing this is a craft hovers above a home and obviously this craft would, you know, to propel itself has the ability to manipulate spaceime. What if it had the ability to expand that bubble such that it encompassed the home or a bedroom or something like that? Uh would that could that possibly be if if somebody’s within that time distortion, could that possibly be like how they would get floated through a wall or whatever?
>> Absolutely. Yeah. So when we talk about the gyroscopic sensor going off and we start talking about the gamma rays going off, if you had this warp bubble or this this metric that was around their ship that they expanded out and and encompassed the other people, the sensor would then say, “Okay, wait, wait.
something’s going on. And so it would pass through the sensor and the sensor would do a jiggle, right? You’d see this jiggle going on or you would see a bunch of gamma rays because every time you have something like that, something energetic, you have a lot you have a a shower of these uh gamma particles that you would then the sensor picks up. So yeah, I think that’s probably one of the better hypotheses is that whatever they’re doing, they’re actually enveloping this this whole their environment in this this bubble. So it appears to them that, you know, time hasn’t changed. You know, they’re just basically living in their in in this due time frame, but then when they return back and they go back through the bubble, um they’re back in their normal time. So that’s very very possible. And and then the question is is how far away is this crap? Doesn’t necessarily I mean wormholes one of the things that I worked with Travis with is these you know is it possible that a lot of the phenomena that we’re seeing is because there’s wormholes that are being created by some remote civilization that actually ends up looking at us and that’s really just a sensor. I mean no matter passes through but a consciousness information could pass through. So you could be living your consciousness could be living within that within that wormhole and end up being you know millions of miles away.
>> So if I do end up going back to college and I take physics again I might actually might actually pass this time.
>> Yeah. You just study space-time metric.
Yeah. And and find out that it’s it’s it’s a real thing.
>> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It’s um Yeah. The whole thing just boggles my mind. But speaking of something else that kind of boggles my mind is this whole hitchhiker effect that we hear about.
>> Sure.
>> Uh tell us what in your view the hitchhiker effect is. Do you think it’s real? And when did you realize that it was truly a recognizable pattern?
>> So you asked a question earlier about you know my uh if I had any reservations about going on the ranch or anything like that or going in that area and stuff like that. And at that point when I was first introduced to this, I didn’t really think about that or know about that. But there are a lot of people that won’t go anywhere near the ranch because they don’t really feel that they’re going to get hurt. They feel that they’re going to bring something back and their family is going to get hurt or their friends are going to get hurt. And it’s possible, it’s statistically relevant that people that do visit these areas and not just Skinwalker, but the whole area end up having other issues back home or wherever they’re normally staying and other people start having issues. So it’s more than just a casual coincidence that there was you know a bunch of people uh Colin Keller and Kit Green and all those scientists they’ve spent time understanding this hitchhiker effect and actually you know came up with some statistics to say that in fact it is true that people when people come back it is statistically significant that they do sometimes pass on the phenomena to other people and they start having um experiences and injuries or illnesses or things like that that that are unexplainable.
I >> mean I I can understand how like a dog is going to follow you home, but how what is the hypothesis of how this phenomenon follows somebody home hundreds of miles away from the ranch?
Is it is it like a virus that spreads?
What could be the mechanism of how how this might work? Well, just think about it in terms of like a a a connection, a communication between these people. So, they bring it home and then once they’re connected to this individual, they say, “Oh, that’s an interesting individual too.” So, they might include that person in their in their communication and then that person starts interacting with that phenomena. So, it’s like I said, it’s the people that sparked the phenomena to start acting in very anomalous ways. So that’s and it doesn’t matter where you are and we find out it’s not a distance because we’ve had things happen you know across the world um where you know somebody over here would have an experience and somebody over here would have have an experience and they would have very similar experiences and at the same exact time. We’ve had a lot of those cases. So it’s just when they have the experience um it’s you know is the is this phenomena interfering or interacting with them and then what’s to say that that it’s not skipping to the next person that they are interacting with you know the person’s interacting with so I you know it it’s you know there’s a lot of work done that says that the hitchhiker is real u enough to say well and there’s a lot of people scared of it and they say I’m not going to go anywhere near those places because I’m worried about bringing someone home.
Yeah, you you can count me in in that group. So So does this stuff actually wear off or once you’re hitchhiked, so to speak, is it permanent?
>> According to the people that we’ve ever talked to, once they start having these things, it’s continuous. They just continue to have them throughout their lives. And and there’s people that are, you know, in their 70s that say, you know, they had their original experience when they were, you know, very young, you know, in their 20s and then ever since they’ve had these things go. So I’ve never heard of I So that’s actually not true. So I’ve heard of a lot of people lately and a lot of people that are in the study and they use the devices for this, they learn how to remove this phenomena from them. So they actually make it so they can attenuate and and make the >> because you when you know something about the phenomena it tends to go away.
Um it tends to go away. So they’ve learned how to make it go away just by being involved in the study. So you know a lot of people don’t want to have it in their lives. You know they’re it’s it’s dangerous to them or they’re you know they it’s upsetting to them and they want to get rid of it. So they join the study and they they they get control not control of it but you know they they kind of you know have have a uh a feel of it and then from that they’re allowed to uh you know they slowly make it go away.
>> You hear like people that have like paranormal stuff or poltergeist stuff in their house like if they burn sage or doing you know do things like that that to me seems like it wouldn’t do anything. Uh but they claim that it really works. So is do you think it could be a similar sort of mechanism like how much does being open to it or inviting it versus you saying no you’re not welcome in my home how effect how effectual is that?
>> Well I don’t know the exact process these people use but there’s some people that are coaching others. Uh we have a a thing in our in our system where you can actually talk to a subject matter expert and somebody that can actually go through and help you. So we have those like it’s like a not a counselor but it’s somebody that that helps you do this and they have methods to help them help other people uh deal with these these experiences. Again these people you know some of these people are traumatized by these things. So >> right >> you know is it you know I guess you can teach us teach whatever it is to you can control it actually. I guess that’s more of a way to put it.
>> So Jim I have to ask have you brought anything home? Have you experienced the hitchhiker effect yourself?
>> I have not, but you you know I don’t believe I have because it’s very difficult to actually tell you have you you raise your eyebrow with certain things they say well you know why did that person get sick and it’s not a genetic thing in our family or things like that. So there there are situations where people will pick up these strange um autoimmune diseases that are you know very prevalent in experiencers and and no genetic evidence that that is prevalent in any family. So you know my personal experience has been that it’s a little big. It’s a question mark there.
So I don’t really know if I brought something back and I would never admit it to them anyway.
>> Okay. Okay. We’ve spoken about the uh the basin and if uh you know skinwalker if skinwalker hitchhikes people and you have this at blind frog ranch uh are there other hot spots in the world that maybe people are not as familiar with where this sort of stuff is spreading for lack of a better way of explaining it.
>> Well Hesselen out in Norway um is is an area that gets a lot of of strange things. We’ve got three or four devices Oh, in Norway.
>> Oh, in Hamilton. Okay.
>> Yeah. Hazelton Valley. Yeah. So, it’s a um very it’s a big hot spot. It’s been for years. A lot of things happening.
We’ve got uh three devices there that constantly monitor and we can look at that and people can comment on it. Um and then there’s some people that are actually in the valley there that actually get it. So, and then there’s a lot of other stuff going on. Australia is just chalk full of areas that have very very strange things going on. Um, so we’ve got like four or five devices there that record some amazing things.
Um, um, so and there’s places all over the, you know, the world that have a lot of hotspots. So just because, and you know, it’s kind of interesting that one of the reasons that we want to get to 10,000 devices because if we can map the world and show where the hot spots are and and kind of get a like a heat map over the world to see where the this experiences are prevalent. I mean, of course, you have to account for populations and you have to account for weathers and things like that, but we, you know, we one of the reasons to get the numbers that high is because we want to be able to answer that question.
Where are the other hotspots and and are they concentrated in areas? Are they, you know, are they remote? Are they in population areas and things like that?
So, there’s a lot of interesting questions that can be answered once you get your number of uh of people that high enough.
>> Okay. We’ve we’ve heard from Gary Nolan.
Dr. Gary Nolan has been on been on our show quite a few times and he’s spoken about how people that have encountered UAP either working for the government or not uh have often received you sort of like brain injury. Um and I’m not going to even attempt to to describe what it is because I’ll totally butcher the thing. But I want to talk about Havana syndrome and I know this is something you’ve looked into. So US diplomats getting these same sort of mysterious brain injuries. you’ve studied this are UAP brain injuries and Havana syndrome literally the same thing in terms of you know same kind of like signature symptoms signals that that you would see in a MRI is there anything distinguishable between the two >> yeah in fact there was one of the things you know going back when the Havana center people started going out so they were you know they were publishing we didn’t get all full data at that point but as data started coming out we started hearing information like the National Academy of Sciences published.
Uh we had a lot of information available to us. Uh we found out that a lot of the patients that came in, a prevalent amount of the patients that were diagnosed with this had these accidental breaks. That means that your axons your the things that interconnect your brain would break basically and would start to bleed. You get these microbleleeds would show up on certain MRIs. And and the people that had gotten these MRIs, most of the people that were in the uh that were categorized and and diagnosed with this had these accidental bleeds, accidental bleeds. And um so we said, “Oh, that’s interesting.” So we went back to a lot of the people that we were looking at um we had medical um information on. We went back and looked at their MRIs and sure enough, a lot of them had the same accidental bleeds. So, and it’s like if you think about it, if like a a boxer um you know gets hit with a punch, your head incredible trauma and then you’re because your accidents are sitting in water mostly, they’ll they’ll they’ll break and bleep. Um it happens when you’re hit your head with a car.
So, normally accidental bleeding is done when you have some trauma to your head like in a car accident or a boxer or something happens to you. But these people didn’t. They didn’t have anything. and they were, you know, sitting in their rooms or these people that saw UFOs, they were, you know, just, you know, in their houses or driving in their cars, they didn’t have any trauma, yet they had the same type of injuries um that the Havana syndrome people have. So now that’s one of the indicators that there is, you know, Havana syndrome um patient is is to look at their MRIs to see if they they go through this GTI, they go through the special MRI, which shows that they had these microbleleeds in there. Uh unfortunately the microbleleeds um the blood that comes out of your axins are so tiny and it dissipates. It takes about a year to dissipate. So it’s hard to go back to these people after a long period of time to see uh what it is. So you know that’s unfortunate but that’s just the way it is.
>> One thing that I’ve heard and I’m just curious your your personal opinion kind of a conspiracy theory. Do you think that the Havana weapon that foreign adversaries could be using came from reverse engineered UAP technology? Is it something that just appeared on the scene all of a sudden or does this like date back to the 40s? That kind of thing?
>> It could very well. I mean, some of the stuff you think about it to do what it did is pretty damn advanced. um you don’t you don’t see >> the products or you don’t see the technologies that would have come along with it appearing um some of this stuff is just insane um that that would happen. So and to do that big of population that much energy if you go through and figure out how much energy it actually needs it’s incredible. So when you look at the National Academy of Science, they published something back uh about two years ago and they said it was some type of energy device that actually produced this thing. But to have that large of a volume, it must have been enormous. Um so how do you do that without being detected? cuz they said they didn’t know where it came from, but they know what it they knew what it was, you know, they and then there was another well well read um publication from another scientific group that said basically, yeah, we agree that it’s a a some electromagnetic spike u pulse that that came and did this. So, you know, is this a government thing? Who knows? um if if it is, why haven’t we seen some other things that would relate to that technology being available for that type of thing?
Usually, like when somebody invents something super terrific that’s used in weapons, eventually it metriculates down to the rest of uh the products and and and technologies.
>> Yeah, it’s it’s I know a couple people that have been haveed. one one was in national security in the first uh Trump administration and I know some people that uh that uh are uh used to be in the intelligence world that experienced it as uh as as well. So uh I mean this what you’re the work you’re doing is is just amazing with this uh uh with this uh mupas. Am I saying it right? Mupas study. uh and again how can folks uh go and apply to be a part of this study?
>> Yeah, so we have a website that you can go to that’ll explain exactly what we have available and what the devices are, what you do, you know, how do you get involved and you can you scan the QR code, you can go to this site and basically you can come over here and it brings you to this and you can read all about it. You can look at the devices.
You can click in. You can look at the the phase one study results. You can see all the information that we gathered for phase one. Um, which is, you know, public information now that it’s been it’s been out there. We have so much information available that, you know, how we did it, what we did, what are the results and things like that. So, you know, if you’re interested in looking at and being involved and understanding what we’re doing and why we’re doing it, um you you could have a nice little website here that that provides that information. So, you know, again, so this is the website, the URL, um experiencers studies.com study 2, or you can just scan this on your phone um and it’ll actually go right to it. the uh the microbleleeds are could any of them be related to sort of poor poor habits in terms of uh high blood pressure or high cholesterol and also being above say like 50.
>> Yeah, I’m not a medical doctor but I don’t believe so. I think that one of the conclusions that the microbleleed is a traumabased thing. So you’re actually shocking your neurons and they’re basically sharing and they’re moving apart. So it’s a physical thing that happens. Um what we did show is that you can get that through an electromagnetic type of pulse. So an electromagnetic pulse can go through your head and because of the way your your physiology is in inside your accent, it actually would tear it apart. But um it’s not a you know it’s not a health thing. I it can’t really you your body can’t just simult or spontaneously you know share your axins but it’s it’s so suspicious because it’s your your axins are splitting and bleeding. Um and the only way to do that is to have a physical mechanical force that actually does it. So it’s either through electromagnetic pulses doing it or you have some type of brain trauma which is you know you get hit in the head or you you know you have a car accident where your head hits the you know airbag or whatever. So that’s you know 99.9% of the people that have this is from head trauma.
>> Jim, what needs to happen for universities and mainstream science to finally take this stuff seriously? I mean clearly there’s a there there. What what is the kind of tipping point that you think we would need to reach for this not to be a taboo subject?
>> Well, I think that publishing a report that shows a five sigma result would wake everybody up and say, “Wait a minute. All right, see you got a five.
Let’s see if we can go at it in another way, another another bunch of hypotheses and questions. You know, maybe we can get that published.” So, but one of the things that we’re doing is that we’re working with two universities now. one on the east coast, one on the west coast, which are they’re the archival type of um repositories for other type of data. And what we’re allowing is that scientists, the the pool of scientists out there that want to get involved, we’re offering the data coming from this study to them, of course, in a very stripped down way that we don’t give out any personal information and let them go forward. So they can then propose to their people, look, I’m going to get this data from these studies, you know, millions of people, you know, millions of, you know, pieces of information and I’m going to go try to answer this particular question and to get funding.
So we’re going to say from twofold. We say, look, we’re going to show that it’s okay to publish here because if we get the decent when we get our our results and also we’re going to provide the data that other people can start producing.
>> Well, Jim, thanks for joining us. this has really been something else and congratulations on this absolutely amazing study. Uh I’m I’m just incredibly excited about about this and and what is going to come out of it.
When do you think that or do you have kind of like a a kind of time estimate as far as when you think this paper would be produced? Is there a critical mass? Are you are you not going to do it until you hit that 10,000?
What will be the sort of point where you say, “Okay, let’s let’s write this paper.” Well, I think the first paper that normally you write, it’s a process paper. Basically, what you do is you write up to say this is how I did it and you publish that. So, that’ll be done very very soon because we want other people to do this. We don’t want to be, you know, the worst thing you can do is publish a paper that you’re the only one that did it. You want do you want to publish a paper and say, “Look, there’s three other groups doing this.” So, the first paper that will come out and very soon will be the the published paper that says this is how we did it. This is the statistical model and all that kind of stuff. And then once we start hitting our milestones of significance in our statistical model, then we’ll start publishing and say, “Okay, here’s our result.” And then we might follow it up with another one. Says, “Okay, here here’s another one.” And then start following that up. So I would say that once we’ve hit the thousand mark, which we’re starting to get to pretty quickly, we’re going to start getting to the point where we can start putting this down on paper and publishing and then hitting the journals um with some D. So you got some really good um like I said these these universities are very high level universities so they we can publish so easily with them.
>> Fantastic. So Jim, how can folks at home if they’re not going to join the study, how can they at at a bare minimum follow your work and uh you know these studies that are going to come out.
>> So we do have our social media. So go on Facebook, we have a whole bunch of things like that. Uh we have a Reddit channel. If you guys want to go on Reddit, there is a place you can go and, you know, put comments in and listen to other people talking and things like that. Um, we’re and then you can go to the Experiencer Reddit group. Uh, they’re constantly talking about this stuff. But, you know, social media, uh, Twitter, um, Facebook and all those things that you can follow us on. And then, you know, get involved in the study. Uh, there’s a lot of podcasts out there that we’ve done. And so, we’re pretty much all over social media.
>> Awesome. Well, Jim, thanks for joining us and uh I look forward to hearing having you back on the show to tell us what uh what you’re finding out there.
>> Yep, that’d be great. Thanks for having me.
>> Folks, if you enjoyed our conversation with Dr. Jim Sagala, you will love this episode. Thanks for tuning in. And if you love our channel, please hit that subscribe button. See you next time.